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Mulberry4000
Mulberry4000's picture
"Why I don't recommend martial arts for victims of abuse"

http://drannmaria.blogspot.com/2014/05/why-i-dont-recommend-martial-arts-for.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/mar/01/tracey-crouch-sports-minister-announces-new-safeguarding-code-children-martial-arts-clubs

https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/how-to-spot-a-toxic-martial-arts-club-environment

i think the article states that men are the main abusers in this situation, where as we know women can and are abusers of people and children. It seems though most intructors are male, but i am not sure if this is correct anymore. 

i have been to martial arts clubs where i felt frightened i might be a attacked, or abused, still went because of ego then  thought what is the point, and left them. 

Your thoughts on it. i tend to agree with the article. 

Incidently my local bjj club mentions world mentla health day, which was nice, another  club of a diffent art acknowledges people with mental health issues etc. 

best wishes

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

There’s lots of different topics covered by those three articles. Brief thoughts on each:

1) The main premise seems to be that martial arts are not good for victims of abuse because they are likely to get sexually abused again by their instructor!?!? The “evidence” for this is little more than the authors own thoughts and the fact that instructors are most often male. The basis of this highly offensive conclusion is that most sexual predators are male (true) … BUT it is not the case that most male martial arts instructors are sexual predators; which is what the author seems to assert! The whole piece is pretty offensive and ill-thought though.

If someone is under the care of professionals following abuse, then they, or their guardian in the case of children, can talk with their care providers to see whether martial arts or self-defence training could be helpful. If it’s decided that it could be, then they need to find a reputable club. They should also check that the club is bona fide and that all instructors have been cleared to work with children and vulnerable adults by the Disclosure and Barring Service (or equivalent in that country). Most good clubs will also have facilities for parents and guardians to stay to observe classes. I think that’s a good idea for all kinds of reasons, and I’d not leave my children with anyone who would not allow me watch what was going on.

These precautions would seem to be far more sensible than the highly offensive assertion that all male martial arts instructors should be assumed to be predatory child abusers in waiting.

In my 30 odd years of teaching, I know martial arts have proved to be beneficial for children and adults who have had trauma in their past. That’s not to say they would be good for everyone, and it’s not to say martial arts are some kind of panacea for mental health issues either. However, I have been contacted by care professionals and worked with them to help people. I also have had feedback from parents and guardians to tell me how much martial arts has helped their child. I also have had feedback from adults who experienced trauma as a child to tell me martial arts has helped them too. I’m sure many others can report similar experiences. Thankfully, those people we helped didn’t just write us off on the basis of nothing but our gender.

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/disclosure-and-barring-service/about

2) Any reputable martial arts group will already have Child Protection Polices in place. Just as they will have DBS checks (formally CRB checks), first aids training, risk assessments, etc. Back when I was a coaching assessor for the EKGB / EKF these were mandatory. We have all those in place already and, like most good groups, we have had for decades. The government making these mandatory for all groups sounds like a good move. However, parents can (and should) already check that those things are in place. It’s not asking for anything new.

3) There are good and bad clubs. Don’t train at the bad ones. The article (and others like it) does highlight some good red flags to look for.

Mulberry4000 wrote:
i have been to martial arts clubs where i felt frightened i might be a attacked, or abused, still went because of ego then  thought what is the point, and left them.

A good club will challenge us while maintaining a safe, supportive and positive atmosphere. If a club fails to do that, then we should leave ASAP and tell all others to avoid it too. Consider a report to the police is the behaviour is potentially criminal.

Mulberry4000 wrote:
Your thoughts on it. i tend to agree with the article.

I strongly object to what it inferred by the first article. I aspire to be as kind and supportive a human being as I can be, and martial arts are one of the main vehicles through while I aspire to help people. The first article makes a hugely offensive assertion. There are better ways to ensure people avoid harm than assuming a huge number of good people are likely to be truly reprehensible based on nothing but their gender.

The second article wrongly infers there are no procedures in place at the moment. They are pretty much universal among all well run groups already. However, a wide government initiative would be welcome. Especially if this includes education for parents on what to look for.

I agree with the red flags discussed in the third article. No one should train in such an unhealthy environment. There are plenty of good clubs out there. There’s no need to train at a bad one.  

Mulberry4000 wrote:
Incidentally my local bjj club mentions world mental health day, which was nice, another club of a diffent art acknowledges people with mental health issues etc.

Promoting awareness and acceptance of mental health issues is really important. Martial arts can help with that and people may be interested in supporting this event later this year:

https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/events/karate-mental-health

It will be a good day!

All the best,

Iain

PASmith
PASmith's picture

I read it slightly differently to Iain and don't think she is asserting that all male martial arts instructors are sexual predators. As someone that asprires to help others through martial arts (as it has helped me) I wasn't overly offended by her points.

Something to bear in mind is that the author of the first article is actually the mother of Judoka/MMA fighter/actor/WWE wrestler Ronda Rousey. As such she has been very close to the case of Kayla Harrison and no doubt more than passingly familiar with the structure of how martial arts are taught and organised (in the US at least). She will also be familiar with the USA gymnastics abuse scandal and how similar the structures and policies in place (or not in place it seems) mirror something like doing martial arts.

As I read it she seems to be pointing out certain things that need thinking about or addressing when recommending martial arts...

Some sexual predators will seek out positions where they have access to children/victims. Not all of them but enough for it to be a consideration IMHO.

Sport and martial arts organisations can often be lax on standards and situations can occur (adults being alone with children/victims) even when standards seem high. Again I see nothing controversial about that.

I read her blog post more as a general "buyer beware" type of thing rather than a wholesale condemnation of men and to judge each instructor on merit.In much the same way SD instructors can advise certain types of pro-active behaviour to try and prevent an assault without assuming that all men are rapists.

PASmith
PASmith's picture

Actually this was written before the USA gymnastics abuse came to light (I assumed it was a recent article). But if anything that lends credence to the advise of "be aware of what you are signing your children up for and what situations they will end up in as a result".  

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

I think following her thinking structure you can use this description to all sports and activities. I don't like the way she says that only trusted people are those who she knows, and all others are potential predators. Also her experience is limited to Judo, I'm around wrestling clubs and Karate clubs for over 20 years, and never seen myself any form of abuse. Parents are always encourage to see what is going on, no one expect them to leave the child without prior questions and observation. In every walk of life you have good people (majority) and bad ones.

For me the article makes assumption that people who have been abused cannot trust any male, which is wrong. I work with people who suffered with mental health, where some been abused in the past. All have positive image of martial arts taught by me, all express how helpful for them was to join in Karate club.

If anyone would like to hear their opinion first hand this event is a great opportunity to do so.

https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/events/karate-mental-health

PASmith
PASmith's picture

There have been a few fairly high profile cases of abuse by martial arts instructors in the UK (and beyond of course). Harry Cook will be known to many people on the UK karate scene. Pele Nathan and Curtis Page more recently. The karate club nearest to me had a case of it.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/york-karate-champ-jailed-for-grooming-girl-13-1-4165591

I don't buy her point that abuse is higher in martial arts than in the general population (not even sure how you'd quantify that given how many cases go unreported) but I do agree with the general point that a martial arts instructor/pupil situation bring some additional considerations.

I don't like the way she says that only trusted people are those who she knows, and all others are potential predators.

While I regret that this sort of stuff is even a consideration that's certainly a background concern with people (and I'll admit I'm more concerned by men that women) that interact with my kids.

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

PASmith,

You stated 3 names for how many karate clubs in the UK? That is what I mean there are few people who are bad.

While I regret that this sort of stuff is even a consideration that's certainly a background concern with people (and I'll admit I'm more concerned by men that women) that interact with my kids

I know that is the peoples approach, I have experienced this recently. Where parents were suspicious of why bloke wants to help their children, but this is our chance as instructors to educate people and show that not all men are bad. At the moment same parents leave their children with me for 45 min and go for coffee. They are free to pop in, have a look through window or if their child have need to see them they go out to them.

I'm working very hard in Guildford are to change this perception with small improvement. Personally i don't fear to leave my son at the classes with men, but I do my home work. I check the club, speak with people and kids taking part, I check all paper work. But leaving in fear is not helpful in my humble opinion.

Like I said before I never seen myself any signs of abuse in the club I've been or instructors that i have met, but I’m not saying that they are not there.

Mulberry4000
Mulberry4000's picture

Iain please let me clarify, i do not believe all men are rapists, ( i did challenge that assertion that all men are abusers  in MA world, ) or all men are sexual  fiends. I used the term abuse, more openly. What i mean  is sexual abuse, phyical abuse etc,  the list goes on. Some clubs i have been to never had problems with sexual abuse,  though some have problems with abuse in general. However the feminist troupe that all men are potential rapists, i totally reject this assertion, this is just plain wrong and evil in my view. Still the person is right that a  MA club may not be the correct remedy for people with trauma or abuse, and can in some cases lead to people being abused.

When  i went to my local bjj  club and voiced my concerns about rolling with other white and blue belts, the instructors said just do it and take it easy, most blues belts have let me try stuff out  to get confidence etc. I have met only one who was a bit well nasty. 

However Martial arts clubs have no medical training, cannot treat depression anxeity etc, so if you got some one who suffers from that, it matters not how you suppport them, they may panic and just leave. I am training in karate and i am a  big man ie 17 stone, but i am  known for not hitting people. Funny i can wack a pad but i just hate hitting people.   Any way  i am pared some times with the nervous people, one woman who was 6.1  foot was very nervous  she had been wacked by a  black belt and some over the top grade. I told her  i will not touch her etc, she did realise i was not out to her hurt her, but as a white belt higher grades should back off hitting people.  She left eventually and that was sad, however for some people, karate is not for them, it same for grappling,  a lot of karate people aviod it like the plague

I think the point of the article was yes MAs can be a benefit but if you have one person or a bunch of people who have  confiedence and mental health problems, and they move the ranks, it can  be a problem.  After all Dan grade is not a  window into other worldly conditions and they are not experts. 

The postiive sides of an MA club can be massive, esp for kids who have low attainment levels at school,  so when they get their first grade it could be the first thing they have ever passed. Or if a kid has problems at school, the club memembers make up all of sorts of people, esp some  have gone through the education system to university level. Some kids and people  just need a positve element in their lives and a person at a MA club can give them a lift. 

The down side is obvious and there have  been problems in the MA world, the article out liines them. I remmeber once i was talking to a high ranking dan grade via email and i said karate is no  good for self defence, he offered me out for a fight. This is not an isolated problem,  and i have it said to me by higher ranking instructors and belt holders, i can  "have you", I just knodded and moved on.

Iain these stories are true and not made up, so there positives and negatives. 

I tell you this the first thing i haver earned in qualification wise, was when i got my yellow belt in Judo in 1985. I had no school qualifications, nothing and this was the first thing i have ever gained, I will never forget that.  I went on to better things in the certficiate department and excuse the typos and spellings. No spell check here lol

As for problems with the karate world in Japan, there was a site  called 24fightingchickens.com, he regulary comment on the abuse problems there. His site is down now but he had written this book on karate kata.  http://www.sski-london.co.uk/downloads/The_Kata_Book.pdf

As for my children, i have took them to the local club i go to and they tried it and liked it for a bit, they just got bored. I remember years ago i went to local kickboxing club,  i sat there with oldest son who was a bout 7/8 at the time. After the class a member of the came up to me and my son offered him out for a fight, he must of been 10/11. I told him straight to go away, and i never went back to that club.  I have been to other clubs and refused to  let my children train there. 

One club  i took my oldest son  too, turned out a bit on the worng side and after six months i left and never went back. 

The karate club i am at is very well organised and very good. 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

PASmith wrote:
I read her blog post more as a general "buyer beware" type of thing rather than a wholesale condemnation of men and to judge each instructor on merit.

I didn’t read it that way at all. The title is “Why I don't recommend martial arts for victims of abuse” and the author states early on that, “in my 43 years of experience in judo, I have seen a higher proportion of sexual abusers than I have in the general population. I suspect this is also true of other martial arts.”

The article does not recommend sensible precautions ("buyer beware") but recommends not buying at all because of the assertion that there is a strong chance martial arts instructor are likely to be children abusers.

In the comments below, the author does state:

“I'm not advocating living in fear. I am arguing about being very careful with children who have already been abused at putting them at-risk of further abuse.”

That’s sound and there can be no argument there, BUT the assertion of the main piece is simply letting them engage in martial arts training is putting them at risk of subsequent abuse; which is why the author recommends avoiding marital arts all together. That’s pretty offensive to me. It’s also bad child safety advice. It’s not the activity that’s the issue. It’s ensuring good systems, precautions and good practise irrespective of the activity.

The premise of the whole article is that martial arts should not be recommended to victims of abuse because repeat abuse is likely enough to make that a bad idea. The portrayal that martial arts are a hot bed for abuse troubled me. As did the assertion that the fact most martial arts instructors were male contributes to the alleged significant risk of abuse.

There are also some other issues. The author states that “The background check is pretty minimal.” Not here in the UK it isn’t. Enhanced DBS checks are a requirement all reputable martial art organisations require of all instructors who work with children and vulnerable adults. It’s a legal requirement too.

That system is not perfect of course, because it relies the authorities being aware of previous bad behaviour (not just convictions) … but it is the exact same level of checks that school teachers, foster parents, healthcare providers, etc have to undergo. The author states that teachers have to undergo a background check, but martial arts instructors don’t. That may be true in the USA, but not here. It’s the exact same level of check.

Despite these checks, I am sure we are all aware of cases in the news where children have been abused by school teachers and care providers (and not all the perpetrators were male either), but that does not mean children should never go to school.   

We have also seen issues with gymnastics, football, church, etc in recent years. Should children avoid all education and all sports? All activities where children come into contact with adults can be used by abusers as a cover. The assertion that martial arts are a special case, and hence should be specifically avoided, is entirely baseless. Again, it’s factually wrong and bad child safety advice.

We need strong systems, education about those systems, sensible precautions, and education about unacceptable behaviour in all activities where children come into contact with adults. The risk needs to be effectively addressed across the board.

However, the risk should not be overly exaggerated to the point where the “precautions” could be harmful in themselves and akin to paranoia. As we say in self-protection training, “the precautions should always be commensurate with the risk”. If you are wearing a stab vest when you leave your suburban home for the weekly shop at Waitrose, that’s not mentally healthy.  Same with what is suggested in this article.

The “precaution” of asserting that children should never do martial arts because they are likely to get abused is way over the top. Keeping children safe is vitally important, but avoiding martial arts all together due to the false belief abuse is likely is both wrong and potentially damaging.

Millions of children do martial arts every week safely and without any issue. It’s an actively they enjoy and can benefit from. Indeed, the sense of empowerment and ownership of one’s emotions and body that martial arts can provide can be helpful in helping children avoid abuse. Think of the good work of charities like Fair Fight (https://www.fairfight.nl/mission.html).

Sensible precautions are a must. Ill-founded paranoia is to be avoided.

The author also states:

“That is not to say that victims of abuse should not do martial arts, ever. There are people I would trust completely …

“… The point is, all of these are people I have known for years.  I would feel comfortable recommending any one of them INDIVIDUALLY.”

I think knowing someone individually is not enough. Predators can be very good at winning over the trust of others and appearing entirely benign. The precautions of background checks, child safety policies, parental oversight, etc should always remain in place. When predators are caught, most people who knew them are shocked. Good practise and good procedures should be ever present, irrespective of the activity, and irrespective of how well we think we know a person.

The article overlooks many of the sensible precautions that can be taken in favour of an extreme position on martial arts specifically. It also focuses on avoiding a specific activity, as opposed to endorsing good systems and good practise that will keep children safe irrespective of the activity whether it be martial arts, music classes, all other kinds of sport, church, education, scouting, volunteering, etc.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mulberry4000 wrote:
Iain please let me clarify, i do not believe all men are rapists, ( i did challenge that assertion that all men are abusers  in MA world, ) or all men are sexual  fiends. I used the term abuse, more openly.

I never used the term “rapist” in my posts. I know where you are coming from so I’m not sure what you are seeing to clarify here?

Mulberry4000 wrote:
However Martial arts clubs have no medical training, cannot treat depression anxeity etc,

Absolutely! It’s a matter for educated professionals. However, those educated professionals have recommended martial arts to adults and children who have trained with me and others; and they have benefited from it.

As I said in my previous post: “If someone is under the care of professionals following abuse, then they, or their guardian in the case of children, can talk with their care providers to see whether martial arts or self-defence training could be helpful. If it’s decided that it could be, then they need to find a reputable club.”

I’m not saying martial arts instructors themselves should seek to “treat” any medical issues; whether they be physical or mental.

Mulberry4000 wrote:
Some kids and people just need a positive element in their lives and a person at a MA club can give them a lift.

Agreed. I was that child and I’d like to think I’ve been a positive influence in the lives of other children. As per my previous post, that would not have been possible if the “advice” to avoid martial arts all other, given in the first article you linked to, have been followed.

Mulberry4000 wrote:
The karate club i am at is very well organised and very good.

Great. Pleased to hear it.

All the best,

Iain