11 posts / 0 new
Last post
Mary Stevens
Mary Stevens's picture
Annan Bunkai

First post - apologies if this is a dumb question. I did have a look for previous on the topic in case I could find out without asking! We work a shitoryu version of Annan with our higher grades. I'm a little dubious about any bunkai due to the fact its a very recent kata and had very few ideas about a section one of the guys was asking about. After the kick/palm strike kiai sequence that goes side to side, the version we learned has turn to the front, with a single finger double arm outer block, then chamber right hand to hip, step forward elbow, chop, back fist. Then repeat to the back. The question was, what is the purpose of the finger? Its not used to stab, it becomes a chop then fist on the strikes... What am I missing?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mary Stevens wrote:
First post…

Good to have you join us!

Mary Stevens wrote:
We work a shitoryu version of Annan with our higher grades …

…. After the kick/palm strike kiai sequence that goes side to side, the version we learned has turn to the front, with a single finger double arm outer block, then chamber right hand to hip, step forward elbow, chop, back fist. Then repeat to the back.

Just so everyone is on the same page, I take it you are referring to the sequence that appears at 1:03 in the video below?

 

And at 1:19 in this one?

 

Mary Stevens wrote:
The question was, what is the purpose of the finger? It’s not used to stab, it becomes a chop then fist on the strikes... What am I missing?

It’s not a kata I practise, but when I see an upward pointing finger, I immediately think of inserting a finger into the nostril of the enemy in order to drive the enemy’s head back. An initial look would have me think:

1) You are clinched with the enemy and they have their head tilted forward. Your left arm is wrapping their right arm. Your right hand is on the back of their neck. You take your right hand off the neck and push your finger into their nostril (does not matter which:-)). This tilt the enemy’s head back.

2) Now that the head is tilted back and their neck open, we withdraw the finger (pulling hand back to hip in kata) and then extend the stance as we strike the neck with the knife hand. The instinctive response is to drop their chin and protect the throat from further attacks. The head is therefore tilted forward again and hence the back of the neck is open.

3) We then shift the weight back as we slap the back of the neck / base of skull with the same arm.

4) We then close the hand and take a handful of hair and pull (the back fist). The are now in a vulnerable position and can be finished in numerous ways.

That’s just initial thoughts, but hopefully of some use. I’m sure others will comment and give their thoughts too.

I notice the back hand also has a finger extended. I’ve deliberately overlooked that because the kata seems to consistently have the hand on the hip mimic the extended arm (i.e. palm heel out, palm heel on hip). So that could be a performance-based habit?

What do others think? Any practitioners of the kata explored this motion?

All the best,

Iain

Mary Stevens
Mary Stevens's picture

Thanks for the comprehensive response. Yes that’s the sequence. And yes, the back hand mirrors the front but then pulls back to the hip. I guess the bit that disturbs me is that the finger basically doesn’t seem to do anything in an aggressive trajectory before rechambering. I’m happy to go with nostril unless someone has a better theory!

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mary Stevens wrote:
Thanks for the comprehensive response.

My pleasure. As I say, just initial thoughts from a non-practitioner of that kata. Hopefully, others will have considered this more deeply and have more worthwhile thoughts to share.

Mary Stevens wrote:
I guess the bit that disturbs me is that the finger basically doesn’t seem to do anything in an aggressive trajectory before rechambering.

My “inspiration” for the above suggestion was “v-shaped” upward fingers in Chinte (video below). In the Shotokan version of the kata the arm moves across in a similar way to the single finger being discussed above. So, it is likewise missing the “aggressive trajectory” (great phrase by the way!). However, in other versions of the kata you do see the fingers clearly rising. The videos below are set to play at the right places. If you compare the Shotokan and Shorin-Ryu versions, you can see the difference.

It is therefore possible moving the arm horizontally in Shotokan's Chinte (like a “block”) is an error in transmission. I feel it is likely that is what is happening here too. With the finger pointing up, I feel it is more likely the direction of the arm is meant to follow the finger; as opposed to the application being a horizontally moving vertical finger.

All the best,

Iain

Chinte Application

 

Shotokan Horizontal V-Fingers (3:07)

 

Shorin-Ryu Vertical V-Vingers (0:40)

Paul_D
Paul_D's picture

The nostril seems like an extremely small target to try and locate in the chaos or a live situaiton though?  The soft fleashy parts under the jaw would be a bigger target, and hurts enough to force someone's head back.  

DW
DW's picture

Also from someone not practicing that kata my first impression was a template for what to do when people points/pokes a finger at you. That quick grab and return to hikite would make most people reconsider their choice of poking you. Fingers are such lovely targets for locks and pain-appliers.

Just my two cents.

Kind regards

Daniel

Tau
Tau's picture

I thought the two-finger V motion was a call back to English archers who took their art to Japan to influence Kyudo wink

calaveraz
calaveraz's picture

Paul_D wrote:
The nostril seems like an extremely small target to try and locate in the chaos or a live situaiton though?  The soft fleashy parts under the jaw would be a bigger target, and hurts enough to force someone's head back.

Thats exactly what I thought. Plus if you try to poke fingers into your opponents nostrils, you probably will get a complete panic reaction which leads to a completely unforseeable movement. I think the "thrust" into the throat section gives a much more "reliable" reaction (tilt head and upper body back, grab for the fingers), which clears the ways for the following attack as Iain has nicely shown in the video from Chinte. Buts thats for Chinte. About the Annan Kata, I am not so sure that these movements are similar. In Chinte the hand which is pulled back is closed, which clearly says, grab and pull.

But the Annan version looks different. The fingers remain "pointing" even on both hands. Maybe you could use these fingers on both hands in an Over-Under situation to poke into the throat on the "over" side and in the arm pit on the "under" side. Doing this has a funny effect on the opponent. It will weakening his strong hold in a grapple situation and give you the opportunity to destroy his balance as the Kata shows by slowing pulling back still having the fingers pressed into these soft spots. Well, but maybe its just me being to disgusted to stick my finger into the nose of another person.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Paul_D wrote:
The nostril seems like an extremely small target to try and locate in the chaos or a live situaiton though?

It would be in a free moving situation, but it’s simple enough when clinched. It’s no more complex than an eye gouge. Hard to put the finger in the eye or nostril if you and the enemy are not connected because you are reliant on sight alone. Add in the feel / tactical awareness and control of a clinch and it’s not overly hard.

I’m not repeating the story in a public forum, but the gap in the Chinte video above is where I edited out the telling of a story of this being done in an extremely effective (and graphic) way. It has been done and it has caused significant injury.

Paul_D wrote:
The soft fleashy parts under the jaw would be a bigger target, and hurts enough to force someone's head back.

In my view this is not as painful, requires more force and it does not give as much control. It’s an option, but I’d stick with the nostrils.  

calaveraz wrote:
… if you try to poke fingers into your opponents nostrils, you probably will get a complete panic reaction which leads to a completely unforseeable movement.

They have to move their head back because the finger is in the nose. Moving left or right would rip at their own nose. The panic reaction is to try to get the finger out, and the pain withdrawal reflex will see the head go stright back which will open the throat. I therefore don’t see it as unforeseeable :-)

calaveraz wrote:
I think the "thrust" into the throat section gives a much more "reliable" reaction …

As above, I think pushing in the throat requires more force, is not as painful and gives less control. The nostril is a hole. When the finger is in that hole the enemy has no option but to move quickly, and directly, backward. Pushing on the throat can see a wider range of reactions (back, left, right, chin down and to the side, etc) so I’d describe it as less reliable. Still workable, but I’d prefer the nostril for the aforementioned reasons.

calaveraz wrote:
Well, but maybe it’s just me being to disgusted to stick my finger into the nose of another person.

That works both ways of course. The enemy may also be shocked and disgusted; all of which helps ensure the mental and physical reaction we need to open up more definitive action.

All the best,

Iain

Ian H
Ian H's picture

I am reminded of a joke once told by an old friend.  You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose ... but you can't pick your friend's nose."   Best said while slowly etending an index finger toward's the listener's nostril.

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

Hi,

Being serious with no bravado or ego (I was actually crapping myself) I can confirm a single finger pointed under the nose does have an impact.

I was descalating an angry man, who was wielding a long handled axe, with no avenue of running away, due to the close proximity of my wife. I trapped the vertically raised axe handle to his body whilst wagging my finger at him and telling him reconsider. However, I inadvertently stuck my forefinger up his nostril, which had a significant and instantaneous de-escalation effect. All ended well and everyone returned home safe to their family.

I don't recommend this approach other than the trapping action, but only if they already have the axe held to their body, there is no avenue of escape and you move fast. If it was a short handled axe things would have been different.

Kindest Regards,

Ally