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mike23
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BJJ black belt dies trying to stop robber

By now you've heard about the BJJ black belt who died trying to stop a robber. http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/452732/BJJ-coach-dies-trying-to-sto...

As a foundation, we do not know the position between the victim and assailant. I will try to find more information about this crime.

Can we discuss the mindset of martial artists and "store clerks" who feel compelled to initiate empty hand attacks against a armed opponents. I will be offering my opinions along with excerpts from this article http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html as well as others.

As a foundation, we do not know the position between the victim and the assailant however we do know he did not kill anyone who complied with his demands.

Why do untrained people feel the need to grab at a robber who has a weapon

Why do trained people believe every situation is a life or death battle.

Where do they get this burst of superhero ability 

In the case of a “trained” victim, where does this mindset, the mindset of “I won’t let him do that to me”, “I can win”, come from. First, it’s imbedded in the male psyche and let’s go there but first, I put much of the blame on instructors. From static,formal knife drills to dynamic “reality” knife defenses, all instill a level of invincibility in practitioners. How?

Gun defenses cannot ever be real enough to instill a “scared straight” attitude in the practitioner. There is no bang, no ringing ears, no bullet. If you use a pellet gun with safety glasses, the every time you get hit you are dead. How many times a night did you get hit. Are you willing to take those odds to the street?

I am not questioning anyone’s training methods and am eager to hear how you teach that “in range” does not mean chance death today. This guy was a BJJ black Belt and may have been successful in 999 other attacks but can anyon be “perfect”?

1) No one ever dies in practice. 2) Multiple “stabbings” per encounter and you’re still alive and well.  3) Zapped with the shock knife? LOL! That stung! LOl! Man! That hurt but I think I got you! 4) Not enough time teaching and instilling the idea that dead is dead. Dead. You miss, you’re dead. For every kill stab in class your punishment is suspended one karate class. Knife or gun.

I believe only if you believe you're other option is death should you attempt a weapon disarm.

OnlySeisan
OnlySeisan's picture

I have a friend from Brazil who despite wanting to go back home and visit won't because there is such violence in the country stemming from disenfranchised people, rampent corruption and joblessness. The violence is actually so bad that her father is afraid to leave his home.

It seems like the crime there is a systemic problem that could be much different than the crime experienced in many first world countries.

Scott McCallum
Scott McCallum's picture

Before i express an opinion on this i just want to point out the following: I am currently a serving police officer with 24 years experience of policing in the UK (both in the West midlands, and in Cumbria) and now serving with a municipal Police Service in Canada.  in my current role as a collision reconstructionist (having left front line policing about 3 years ago) we are currently investigating a hit and run that resulted in a gas station clerk being deliberately run over as she attempted to prevent a $113 dollars (approx  55 GBP) gas drive off.

Through-out my policing career I have always given the advice that in a theft/robbery situation, hand over your property and be satisfied that walking away with your life is a big win.  I have been involved in murder investigations involving one punch deaths and fatal stabbings resulting from ego inspired conflict and have seen nothing in my service that gives me good reason to change that advice.

The one time that my advice varies is in the context of being threatened by someone who is attempting to remove you form your current environment, i.e. being taken into a vehicle, down a dark alley way, into a house...etc...in these conditions I would suggest the only reason to take you elsewhere is for further harm to your person.

Back to property crimes....the real problem is that our society , (heavily influenced by our 'Have-a-go' hero media portrayals) creates a cultural psyche where-by we are ingrained to believe that we are less 'manly' if we let our selves be victims of crime.  In addition to this we have employers who will make it a matter of policy that store thefts/ shoplifting/gas driveoffs/ dine and dash losses will be directly taken out of the wages of the employee who was dealing with that transaction. Suddenly a 40 dollar meal becomes a significant chunck out of the pay packet of a single parent trying to feel and house a family.  Although Employers are quick to deny such practices (due to liabilty concerns) I have been to countless cases where staff have confirmed that the loss will come out of their pocket.

Although I do not have the sources to hand, several training presentations i have had over the years has identified that victims of sexual or violent crimes have had a greater resilence to the emotional effects of being a victim of crime if they have resisted the offenders actions despite suffering greater physical harm, than those who have suffered less physical damage as a result of co-opperating with offender demands and have shown faster emotional recovery as a result. This however is dealing with attacks on the integrity of the person and not property loss.

As a senior student with in my club I have on several occasions spoken about the need for our club memebrs to understand that it's ok to surrender personal items and walk away unharmed (using the example of Gichen Funakoshi's story from Karate-do, My Way of Life as an example.)

I think that we need to train ourselves and those we have any influnce over to give ourselves permission to see it as a win when we walk away in one piece and not to see ourselves as a (loser-victim) - We need people to think of this kind of thing as a situation where the risk of life or death is a very concrete reality and that nothing outside of our person and that of our friends and family is worth killing or dying for.

All of the above having been said, as a police officer I very much subscribe to the sheep/sheepdog/wolf analogy and have, in a sudden rush of blood to the ego, been involved in off duty arrests, rescue situations and other incidents where on calm reflection of the event afterward resulted in the chill realisation that my 'stupidity' could have resulted in my own death or serious harm'

In closing we need to address this in our training and that of those we are responsible far and 'train our ego muscle' that our single foremost duty is to come home to our family and loved ones in the manner that they would like to see us in.  We need to train that having been in a brutal and savage exchange of blows where we end up bruised and battered, having maybe lost a tooth or worse, it is of absolutely no comfort to our children, spouse or significant others that we held onto our wallet/stopped a drunk from stealing a bottle of booze/or a junkie from grabbing cash to pay for his next fix, when they have to deal with the pain of seeing us injured or wounded, and fearing that the next 'Have-a-go Hero' to get stabbed to death for a handful of change will be us.

If anyone reads to the end of this post then thank you for your patience with my ramble but this is a subject close to my heart.

Scott McCallum

John
John's picture

"I think that we need to train ourselves and those we have any influnce over to give ourselves permission to see it as a win when we walk away in one piece and not to see ourselves as a (loser-victim) - We need people to think of this kind of thing as a situation where the risk of life or death is a very concrete reality and that nothing outside of our person and that of our friends and family is worth killing or dying for."

Thats a good way of putting it. Lawrence Kane has a story in one of his books where he was jumped by a couple of mugger with knives and despite having a loaded gun threw a money clip (with money in it) at them and ran. His moral was losing an expensive money clip and a hundred bucks was better than shooting someone.

mike23
mike23's picture

People survive knife attacks all the time and with continued reassurance from instructors students truly believe they should fight back against a knife wielding attacker. For the instructor’s part, they may be preaching to “fight back” ONLY IF YOUR LIFE IS THREATENED and therefore they instill in the minds of students the yes you can mindset. Confidence building phrases such as- assume you’ll get cut but you can survive give the student the will to try. I agree that’s what’s needed to instill the “fight for your life” attitude HOWEVER instructors don’t go far enough in teaching what is “threatening your life” as they show defenses for a knife to the neck and knife in your mid-section knife to your back, ETC. There are a myriad of positions that are considered “life threatening” with as many defense techniques.

With all the attacking positions where the students practice- “Give me your money!” or a hand in your car window with the “GET OUT!” attack, students learn to fight back against – any knife situation. Yelling and pushing in practice may get the Adrenalin going but are not in themselves life threatening.  

Scott McCallum
Scott McCallum's picture

My son completed a course at school which was essentially about learnng workplace and life skills in which as an exercise there were asked to calculate a series of expences for food bills, rent and such like.....

I think that one step in the reality direction would be to set your student homework where they find out.....how much would it cost to engage a lawyer to defend you from a maliceous assault charge by an injured offender.....(and lets face it making a false claim against your victim is a great way to muddy the water and shift the blame), hom much would a week off work cost because your workplace doesnt want a sales associate on the floor with a busted up face, or you are forced to take a few weeks off work to heal a broken finger or injured wrist.  If your living in  acountry where it is applicable, what are the medical costs associated with a broken rib....what is the medical process when you are bitten by a drug user, or person living a high risk lifestyle, even if not ultimately infected)(, the course of injections and time spent scared to be physicalyl close to your loved ones incase of cross contamination....

There is a point when the trade off becomes worth it....as Iain said in one of his podcasts...and i cant remember which one but to paraphrase....if i run off and leave my loved one behind.....she'd kill me...but if i get badly beaten and she gets away unharmed then i call that a win....(apologies for the terrible job of paraphrasing it but the point is valid.....but make each person evaluate before hand where that line in the sand is for them....

We teach people to inocculate themselves against stress by immersing them in aggressive situations..this is similar....each student(and teacher) had in advance an already acceptable and rationalised (to themselves) set of conditions where they have allowed themself to walk away without guilt because they have saved themself the agony of second guessing themselves when their decision making abilities have already been compromised..

And they have also considered and begun to be able to articulate the reasons why that line was or was not crossed and their response to it.

What would be nice was if someone with a proven history of podcasting and presentation (hint hint) were to make a podcast where the student considered each of these issues in turn, it might bring with it the weight of someone seen as an authority saying ..you know it's ok to hand over that wallet..."hey...why not carry two....one throw away with a bit of cash and a couple of cards...and the rest of your more important items elsewhere...thats an excellent idea...!!!..:)"...you could even call it something like...'The Cost of Living..."

Anyways, I thank the original poster as it's given me something , as an intermediate belt to discuss with my junior students on the occassions where i get some input into the class.

Scott McCallum

Ian H
Ian H's picture

Scott McCallum wrote:

Before i express an opinion on this i just want to point out the following: I am currently a serving police officer with 24 years experience of policing in the UK (both in the West midlands, and in Cumbria) and now serving with a municipal Police Service in Canada.  in my current role as a collision reconstructionist (having left front line policing about 3 years ago) we are currently investigating a hit and run that resulted in a gas station clerk being deliberately run over as she attempted to prevent a $113 dollars (approx  55 GBP) gas drive off.

Through-out my policing career I have always given the advice that in a theft/robbery situation, hand over your property and be satisfied that walking away with your life is a big win. 

...the real problem is that our society , (heavily influenced by our 'Have-a-go' hero media portrayals) creates a cultural psyche where-by we are ingrained to believe that we are less 'manly' if we let our selves be victims of crime.  

Thanks for your posts, Scott.  

I live in British Columbia, where we've had "pay before you pump" laws since 2008 ... and it took a young man's death and some activism by his parents to bring that about.  Still, we are (I believe) the only Canadian jurisdiction to have such a law.  Anyhow, I remember the recent story out of Alberta (I suspect the one you are working on) of a mother with a husband and young child at home dying trying to prevent a "gas and dash".  She was in her mid-30's.  

Not the stereotypical "young testosterone male" ready to buy into the "be a hero" mentality you mention.

And I mention that NOT to say you are wrong, but to say ... yes ... and it CAN happen to you, even if you think you are "not the type".  I suspect we could all, myself included, do with a bit more mental preparedness so that "your money or your life!" (even when the bad guy doesn't actually mention "or your life") is a no-brainer in the right direction.  

Scott McCallum
Scott McCallum's picture

Yes....I'm over in Calgary.

Its a good example though of what we're talking about.  Like yourself, I'm aware of my own habit of not considering the whole risk \ reward totality.  Im my defence, the police mindset is partly to blame but i think that the pre-innoculation exercise will help to buffer that overdeveloped ego, hopefully.

Scott McCallum