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Graziano
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Grappling in Traditional Karate

Hello to everyone, I have got a question for you. What are the difference beetween grapping  method of traditional karate, and other forms of grapping method, like japanese judo, brazilian ji jutsu, greco roman wrestilng,  russian samboecc.ecc ?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

The first few paragraphs of this article cover this topic: https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/karate-grappling-did-it-really-exist

All the best,

Iain

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

To go along with Iain's article, I see the grappling methods of karate being a means to an end, rather than the goal, as it is in the grappling arts you listed. In karate, grappling is intended to take control of the opponent who is attacking you, so that they cannot attack you as effectively, and clear the way for you to put them on the ground (via strikes, throws, or locks) in a way that allows you to extricate yourself from the situation. In a grappling art, particularly a competitive one, the goal is to more effectively grapple your opponent than they can grapple you. In karate, the goal is to grapple your opponent enough to more effectively strike, throw, or lock them and get away.

Marc
Marc's picture

I would say, what they do have in common is that they all make use of physics and weaknesses of the human anatomy. (I know that's very general, but I hope it is clear what I mean.)

Where the various grappling arts differ is in the rules, the goal, and the context that they are trained for.

Some examples might help clarify that:

Rules

In Judo you are not allowed to apply leg locks. In Brazilian Jujutsu you are. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) So Judoka would not train them, while BJJ people would.

In self-defence you should act in accordance with the law, while your opponent doesn't.

Goal

In Brazilian Jujutsu you fight for submission through locks, or strangles, while in wrestling you try to put your opponents shoulder blades on the ground for a few seconds. Both also score points for certain actions.

In self-defence you want to avoid harm and escape.

Context

In competitions you try to win. In training you try to learn from one another. Both are consensual fights where you actively seek the engagement.

In self-defence you try to end a dangerous situation as quickly as possible. The fight, if it cannot be avoided, is not consensual.

All three criteria change the way you make use of grappling methods. The methods are fundamentally the same, but the various grappling arts choose different techniques from the pool and put emphasis on those methods that are useful within their rules, goal and context.

Take care,

Marc  

Graziano
Graziano's picture

Wastelander wrote:

To go along with Iain's article, I see the grappling methods of karate being a means to an end, rather than the goal, as it is in the grappling arts you listed. In karate, grappling is intended to take control of the opponent who is attacking you, so that they cannot attack you as effectively, and clear the way for you to put them on the ground (via strikes, throws, or locks) in a way that allows you to extricate yourself from the situation. In a grappling art, particularly a competitive one, the goal is to more effectively grapple your opponent than they can grapple you. In karate, the goal is to grapple your opponent enough to more effectively strike, throw, or lock them and get away.

I read the  article's Ian and your comment, but I have not understoond much. What do you mean? You mean who the purpose of karate grappling, it's not to stay on the ground many times, for to do a point, like expert of mma do, but striking and escape. But is there a double leg, o o soto gari on karate? A double leg  o o soto gari  ecc. ecc,. is always a double leg.

Iain Abernethy
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Graziano wrote:
I read the  article's Ian and your comment, but I have not understood much …

… But is there a double leg, o o soto gari on karate? A double leg, o o soto gari  etc. etc,. is always a double leg.

I think you may be confusing techniques, tactics and objectives. While there is some common technique, the goals / objectives are different, and that means different tactics. It also means there are methods that don’t apply universally (not everything is common). For example, if you were grappling to escape (as you would in self-defence / old school karate), then you’d seek to remain upright when throwing and not end up one the ground. So, the way in which the throws would be applied would be different. Largely the same technique, but done a little differently due to the differing goals and hence tactics.  

Two different approaches could have a “double leg takedown”, but one would apply it in such a way as to gain and maintain dominance on the ground (say MMA) … and the other would seek to remain upright so they could strike and escape (old school karate).

I think the above posts explain it well and you may need to just spend a little more time appreciating how goal dictates tactics, which in turn influences the nuance of technique. It’s very important to understand that technique is just one part of it. Common technique does not mean a common approach.

The video below comparing karate and judo may also help.

All the best,

Iain

Mulberry4000
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Judo has been dummed down, and it is ruined the art. Too many rules, cannot do this , cannot do that, if you hold this too long you get a penalty,  it is mind boggling. Also it is dam expensive, approved gi, club fees, org fees, grade fees, then to get higher you are expected to do compettions, if you got two or three kids, and your self, the dog who wants do it,  dam expensive. 

To top it all lot of stuff  is banned, when i was doing judo in the 80s leg grabs were legit, and practical, leg siccissor throws great stuff.  i know  some clubs do not even teach break falls, it is all too sports orientated. If it does sort it self out and  stop being competiton forcus all the time, it will die out. 

Mulberry4000
Mulberry4000's picture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiTrlEdCIrE

Check this out i find the video guy really annoying, and i am from a judo background, i get fed up of people saying grapplying is good for multiple attacks, on its own no , it's not , with combination with a strike art oh yes it is . I get fed up of people say fighting on the ground is great or good. From a person who has been in fights and done lots of ground work in judo you do not want to be on the ground fighting. Grapplying is extremely tiring, it is exhausting work, that why strikes are better, why they hit first, and are quicker, that is why people employ them first, that is why people use weapons first. If you end up grappling you really messed up the fight.

My first art was judo and it is my great love, second art i like is karate. when i train for multiple attacks my judo came in great, but without the karate i be very exposed. Grapplers are exposed to strikers and strikers are exposed to grapplers, u need both. Judo has strikes ie atemi waza but not really taught, karate as lots of throws but not really taught,. The karate club i attend teaches throws and breakfalls etc, There is a revolution going in the karate world se iain abernethy etc I just get he impression the guy in the video has not don much fighting. Lots of his clips are of single pre arranged fights BJJ are poor at throws and strikes but fantastic on the ground.

The Gracies did not go into ufc without not knowing striking , most people do not realise this or think it. I was obsessed with judo i thought it i was the best and most perfect art for defence and sport wise, but however i felt really exposed to a striker. I knew this, it is a big area that judoka knows about if he is honest. Also strikers have different body conditioning to a grappler. karate people, boxer, MT guys are used to getting hit, blocking strikes etc,and hitting back , grapplers have no defence against this. Sure judo randori can help a bit, so if you hit a grappler who is not used to getting hit then well, that can and will shock/hurt them and if they cannot defend against it. yest nee strikes work, why MT uses them very effectively, so does karate.. Its not the art its the person.