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Dash3
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Karate as an Olympic sport

Karate has been adopted as an official Olympic sport for the 2020 Games in Tokyo. Are you happy or not?

JWT
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I'm happy for the minority of karateka that compete in WKF kumite. I'm sad for the minority that compete in WKF kumite.  

Most of all however I'm sad for the majority of karateka as I don't feel that the current format represents our art. There will always be a disconnect between competition at the highest level and the grass roots, but it would have been nicer to see something that represents 3K karate and had aspects with which all karateka could relate. Of course we cannot blame the WKF for that. The reason we do not have it is because no-one has set up an exciting and viable alternative multi faceted competition that can engage both karateka and the public alike.  

My pipe dream would have been to have a 3K competition, rather like a triathalon of karate, where competitors have to score in three equally weighted divisions.  

Kumite. As has been discussed elsewhere in this thread, the Kudo format offers an exciting and impressive way to showcase the breadth of the karate repertoire that exists across styles.  

Kihon. A test of impact generation (divided by participant weight for fairness) on a machine with the three best techniques from punching, kicking, striking.  

Kata. Demonstration of two kata of any system, judged by referees from at least 4 styles.  

I think this is the sort of competition that could really engage both the karate world and non karateka alike. Kudo on its own would excite many but 'turn off' many others who don't yet know their potential. The kihon and the kumite elements of the competition would showcase the discipline, power and beauty of karate and act as an alternative draw. Whether it is in the Oympics or not, we could still have this kind of competition if one organisation supported it and showcased it on media platforms like facebook, twitter and youtube.  

All the best  

John

Iain Abernethy
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I wrote a post on my feelings about Olympic Karate three years ago and it’s largely how I still feel:

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/olympic-karate-good-us-all

Summarising as briefly as I can, I think it’s an irrelevance that won’t affect that vast majority of karateka in any way.

Aside from the points made in the linked post, we need to remember that – unless your nation happens to do particularly well – almost no one is going to watch it or even register it as happening.

I have many family members and friends who are sport crazy, and I can’t recall a single one of them remarking, “Did you see the Taekwondo last night?! I stayed up to 3am to view it and, whohoo!, it’s the Judo finals tonight!” People don’t care.

The only people who seek out such things to watch are existing / former practitioners i.e. people already involved in the marital arts. TV companies are going to focus on the athletics – what the Olympics is really all about in the minds of most people – so the idea that the whole world is going to get the wrong idea about karate now it’s in the Olympics is ill founded in my view. The general public’s idea of karate is shaped more by movies than it ever will be by Olympic inclusion.

Tokyo is 8 hours ahead of the UK, 7 hours ahead of most of Europe, and 13 hours to 16 hours ahead of the USA. No one in the west, is going to be getting up in the middle of the night to watch the karate, and that’s even if it is aired to any significant degree.

Those who do see a few moments in a highlight reel are unlikely to make firm conclusions based on it. If they do decide to learn more, they will type “karate” into YouTube and see all the disparate pursuits that share that common name. There is no way Olympic Karate will be shaping things for the rest of us because no one in the general public really cares about it.

Sport Karate, as fun as it can be for competitors, is just not exciting enough (or understandable enough) for the lay viewer and hence it will never be cared about to any meaningful degree.

I’m pleased the karate athletes finally have a shot at Olympic gold. For me personally, I don’t care either way. That’s not the karate I do, nor will it have any influence on the karate I do. I also doubt it will make any significant mark on the public consciousness when it comes to karate.

REMEMBER: We are talking about the possibility of a very small section of the public seeing a few minutes of competition karate once every four years.

It’s going to be a total irrelevance to the majority of karateka, certainly to the general public, and we need to keep a sense of perspective.

I’m therefore neither happy or unhappy because it’s an irrelevance to me and my take on karate.

All the best,

Iain

Dash3
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I suppose as I asked the question I should offer my two cents -

I wish I could be as detached as Iain, and surely I am in the same boat where what will be presented bears little to no relation to what I practice (except maybe the white pyjamas). But I do fear that inclusion, under the name of karate, will cheapen what I do in the eyes of others. I probably shouldn't care about that, but I do.

And I worry that this will continue to pull the art in that direction. I feel that those of us who emphasis pragmatic self-defense have made great strides recently, but this is a victory for the other camp (is it a battle for the soul of karate?).

And I do worry that it will lead to a (in my view) lessening of the general quality and effectiveness (as I define it) of karate instruction, as I believe has happened in judo and TKD. One of the more common comments I get from my judo instructor is "That's a good throw, Dale, but you can't use it in competition". Thankfully, my instructor knows I don't practice to compete, but the majority of my training partners do, so the majority of the instruction is geared towards competition.

By the by, I HAVE stayed up late to watch the judo competitions, even before I was a practitioner. One of the best years was the Sydney olympics because I was living in Japan at the time, so the time difference was minimal and judo got maximum coverage. I will not be watching any of the events of this olympics, however dearly I love them (and have always loved them), because I don't want to be part of the market demand that is driving these games to be held in spite of the apparent health and safety risks. If karate were in these games, the highest karateka would be the one who stayed home and far away from Rio...

Iain Abernethy
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Dash3 wrote:
And I worry that this will continue to pull the art in that direction. I feel that those of us who emphasis pragmatic self-defense have made great strides recently, but this is a victory for the other camp (is it a battle for the soul of karate?).

I don’t think it really works that way. The sport folk can’t pull my karate in any direction. It’s mine and mine alone. They change their rules; my karate continues unaffected. They have a world championship; my karate continues unaffected. The get Olympic recognition; my karate continues unaffected. And there are literally millions like me.

There’s not one karate that we all share and that we are all hoping will go in our direction. There are many different takes on karate. Theirs is one, and mine is another. They are linked by the use of a six letter word only (”karate”) and I don’t see the battle for karate’s soul; because it is not a single homogenous entity.

Those in the Olympic karate movement have no link to us or influence on us. I am as disinterested in what they do as they are disinterested in what we do.

They will get their golds (I’m pleased for them), a few minutes on a highlight reel before “joe public” watches the “real Olympic sports”, and then everyone will be back in their dojos doing what they always did the very next day. If they are lucky, then four years later they get a few more moments on TV. And in that time millions of people will have watched thousands of hours of YouTube videos showing all other aspects of karate (my channel alone gets over 100,000 minutes of views on a bad month). The TV coverage will be short and brief, at best.

As I say, it will be an irrelevance to most and I can’t see it having any lasting or meaningful influence on the general public either.

I have a feeling it will be a bit of disappointment to all. It will not be Armageddon for the traditional and practical types; I don’t think it will affect us at all. It also won’t be the promised breakthrough to the mainstream for sport karate either because it’s too boring and confusing for the ley viewer. It will happen, and then we will all carry just as before. It will be forgotten about within a week.

Time will tell of course, but I do know it will have ZERO influence on karate for me, and millions like me.

Dash3 wrote:
And I do worry that it will lead to a (in my view) lessening of the general quality and effectiveness (as I define it) of karate instruction, as I believe has happened in judo and TKD. One of the more common comments I get from my judo instructor is "That's a good throw, Dale, but you can't use it in competition". Thankfully, my instructor knows I don't practice to compete, but the majority of my training partners do, so the majority of the instruction is geared towards competition.

That will / does only happen in clubs that do compete. Non-competitive groups, such as mine, never give the rules a moment’s thought. I’m not even sure what they are these days. I think it would be a big mistake to rely on the competitive rules to engender pragmatism in practise (they have never done that). Just seek the practical irrespective of what the rules are and that issue goes away.

All the best,

Iain

chrishanson68
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Hi All, 

Spoke to some veteran Canadian Karate Sensei's here in Canada about this topic just yesterday.  Bottom line, the Olympic Karate Committees will severely streamline the rules about what is graded and how it will be graded.  Senseis all over the world, don't necessarily keep their kata, for instance, "as-is" since it's inception into the world.  Sensei's and Schools often change it up and "bastardize" it to suit their own learning goals.  This will be a HUGE problem for those schools.  Secondly, the focus will be on sport kumite and standardized kata...to me this is a very narrow focus. To see the beauty of Karate, I would suggest that the public see various aspects of Karate and formulate test criteria around that:

  • Kata
  • Realistic Bunkai
  • Kobudo
  • Kihon

Olympic Karate overall will attract the sport competitors, but not necessarily the ones who want to learn it for the art and self protection....it will basically have the effect that MMA had on the world....a great business model, but limited to just sport.

Chris.

Iain Abernethy
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Hi Chris,

Is kata even to be in the Olympics?  My understanding, and I could easily be wrong, is that it's kumite only. I once was a senior kata judge, but I've not been kept up with the rules for quite some time. My understanding though, and again I could be wrong, is that they have now given up on the idea of standardised kata, with each individual kata being judged on its own intrinsic merits.

Even if they did insist on staderdised kata,  that would only affect those competing. And so it's probably not a major issue for those of us who wish to understand the kata as opposed to simply compete with one given example of the external shape of the kata. 

As someone who has nothing to do with competition Karate, the rules and the direction of the sport have absolutely no bearing on me.

All the best,

Iain

Stuart Akers
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As I see it the only reason that any club or Association would push for inclusion is that it would make them eligible for Lottery funding, it's about the money.

I have no axe to grind about that; I don't actually care, what I do care about is funding supporting Club A over Club B,just because Club A does an Olympic sport whereas Club B doesn't.

I live in a small town and for a few years shared premises with the local, well established Judo Club, they were financially supported by the local Council and had a tenth as many members as we did.

What it showed me was that instructors who think about what brings students in, fun, camaraderie, and a sense of inclusion is far more important than the cost of training fees. 

If there is no financial incentive for that club to survive (not necessarily for the instructor) then teaching standards can fall through the floor.

Marc
Marc's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Is kata even to be in the Olympics?  My understanding, and I could easily be wrong, is that it's kumite only.

Information on the five new sports that will be part of the 2020 Olympic Games in Tokyo can be found on the official Olympic website. See this PDF:

https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Document%20Library/OlympicOrg/IOC/Who-We-Are/Commissions/Olympic-Programme/Tokyo-2020-Olympic-Programme-Commission-report.pdf

The first section on karate starts at page 22. They give information on the value added to the Olympics by the sport. The second section starts at page 52. They talk about possible venues and show some nice fotos. On page 60 they quote some people's opinion on karate becoming olympic. The fourth section starts at page 72. They present their observation report from the WKF Premier 1 Karate League in January 2016.

The information about which competition formats of karate will be included is to be found in the first section:

- Single Kumite male in 3 weight classes

- Single Kumite female in 3 weight classes

- Single Kata male

- Single Kata female

Personally I think that they should have opted for team kata with "bunkai" demonstration. I feel that the spectactular stunts you see in the bunkai demonstrations could be attractive to lay viewers. It's a bit like what they know from the movies. Single kata, to the lay person, might have that mystical look to it, but the kumite format, I believe, would be boring to watch for the lay viewer.

With regards to the effect of karate being olympic on the image of karate in the general public, I guess that it will have next to no effect.

Iain Abernethy
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Marc wrote:
Information on the five new sports that will be part of the 2020 Olympic Games in Tokyo can be found on the official Olympic website. See this PDF ...

That’s really useful! Thank you for sharing that and pointing people to where the information can be found.

All the best,

Iain

Creidiki
Creidiki's picture

It will go the way of Judo. Olympic & sports Karate will draw absolute majority of people resources and money, the martial art aspect will be a niche for few traditionalists and nerds and barely survives.

We could possibly start poaching competitors who have retired but do not wish to quit practising.

"Psst. Wanna try some real Karate? First try is free"

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Creidiki wrote:
It will go the way of Judo. Olympic & sports Karate will draw absolute majority of people resources and money, the martial art aspect will be a niche for few traditionalists and nerds and barely survives.

I can’t see that. Judo and Karate and very different. For a start, the vast majority of karateka are non-competitive. Also key is the fact that traditionalists and pragmatists are the most vocal, most numerous, and are the ones setting the agenda at grass roots level; day in day out. A few minutes in a highlight reel once every four years (if karate becomes a permanent event) will not be able to overturn that.

Having trained with full time judo athletes; I think we overestimate the amount of money they get. They all need jobs to support their training. Ronda Rowsey is on the record of saying one of the reason she prefers MMA to Judo is that she can now afford to feed her dog. The small amount they get is not enough to support the athletes at the highest level, so it’s nowhere near enough to set the agenda worldwide. And even putting all that to one side, if that was the way it was headed, I would not go “gently into that good night” but would “rage, rage against the dying of the light" :-)

My karate will not change one iota due to Olympic inclusion; I’m sure that will be the same for the majority.

All the best,

Iain

Creidiki
Creidiki's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

I think we overestimate the amount of money they get.

I dont't mean wads of cash, but access to school gymnasium as a training place or a  grant for equipment/ travel expenses/ instructor fees etc. Olympic success is the gold standard for a sport (pun intended :-))  and an olympic sport has access to some of that sweet sweet $5 billion revenue IOC makes + national grants + sponsorships. Not to mention the marketing and promotion that IOC does, which is great because it will kick UFC marketing and promotion departments ass.

Meanwhile I will be running an ad in the local newspaper next week for new trainers and putting a flyer in school notice board. -sight-

Iain Abernethy wrote:

And even putting all that to one side, if that was the way it was headed, I would not go “gently into that good night” but would “rage, rage against the dying of the light" :-)

Nor should we, even judo still has its combat or self defence advocates, but for a random person wanting to practice judo chances of finding one are slim to none. It will not happen in the first olympiad or even in the second, but unless we find synergy with sports karate then the pragmatic tradition will go the way of the dodo bird.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Creidiki wrote:
I dont't mean wads of cash, but access to school gymnasium as a training place or a  grant for equipment/ travel expenses/ instructor fees etc.

Judo does not get free access to gymnasiums / sport centres etc. They have to pay their way, just as karate does and will do. While elite athletes may get travel expenses for big events, if the same happened to sport karate that’s unlikely to wipe out all other approaches! It’s a very small thing.

Being a judo instructor is just like karate in that it is largely voluntary. I also know of way more professional karate instructors (literally hundreds) than professional judo instructors (two). The reason for this is that there is a greater demand to learn karate than there is judo. This is not what you would expect if Olympic recognition really did lead to the things you suggest it does.

Olympic karate won’t result in free access to venues or an army of financially independent sport coaches. It never has for Olympic judo. It’s not something we need to realistically worry about.

Creidiki wrote:
Olympic success is the gold standard for a sport (pun intended :-))  and an olympic sport has access to some of that sweet sweet $5 billion revenue IOC makes + national grants + sponsorships. Not to mention the marketing and promotion that IOC does, which is great because it will kick UFC marketing and promotion departments ass.

I still think you are grossly overestimating the money that sport karate will have access to and what it will be able to do with that money. All the fulltime judo athletes I have known struggle financially. The IOC may be wealthy, but Judo is a tiny part of the whole movement. There is not that much money available.

Creidiki wrote:
Meanwhile I will be running an ad in the local newspaper next week for new trainers and putting a flyer in school notice board. -sigh-

And in doing so you will have spent more on the promotion of your club in your area than  the IOC / Olympic Judo will have spent to advertise the whole of the sport. They don’t have the resources to spend money on advertising. What little there is goes to help the very small number of elite athletes at the highest level. They spend nothing on advertising sport judo clubs at the local level. It will be the same for karate.

The combined money spent by local clubs on advertising, and people like me promoting what we do through paid adverts on facebook etc, is not insignificant. Olympic Judo spends nothing on advertising at grass roots level. In the forty plus years that Judo has been Olympic, I’ve not seen a single advert promoting sport Judo to the masses. I therefore don’t think there is any legitimate need to worry that sport karate will acquire an unstoppable financial might that it will use to advertise / promote us into oblivion.

Even the huge draw Olympic sports like athletics don’t have money to spend on advertising. And their athletes also need to rely on lottery money and sponsorship for training facilities, equipment, etc. There’s not that much money to go around. As I say, I think you are grossly overestimating the money available and what can be done with it. A look at the other sports should reassure you though.

Creidiki wrote:
Nor should we, even judo still has its combat or self defence advocates, but for a random person wanting to practice judo chances of finding one are slim to none. It will not happen in the first olympiad or even in the second, but unless we find synergy with sports karate then the pragmatic tradition will go the way of the dodo bird.

Judos very ethos has always been one of physical development, and that naturally leads to sport. While there are some self-defence based judoka, they are, and always have been, a small minority. It’s not like there was an army of self-defence focussed Judoka who vanished when Judo got Olympic recognition. Karate is very different. The vast majority are non-competitive and the landscape of karate is unlikely to be radically altered due to there being one more tournament every four years and the very small amount of associated TV exposure.

No one outside of the martial arts is going to go out of their way to watch karate on the TV. At best, they will see a few moments in a highlight reel – once every four years – if one of their country’s athletes does well. That’s not going to have any real effect. I also don’t think the argument that the money associated with Olympic recognition will be able to set the agenda. It will be a small amount overall, and a tiny drop in the ocean compared with the combined amount spent by non-competitive clubs, associations and individuals day in and day out.

So when it comes to Olympic karate posing a threat to other forms of karate I’ve not heard an argument I find convincing. They are welcome to do what they do, and we will carry on doing what we do; confident it has a bright future.

All the best,

Iain

Ian H
Ian H's picture

I think that TKD is a better cautionary tale than Judo. 

Look at those silly electronic contact monitors (vests, socks) that the athletes wear ... the point being (quite literally) to make "enough" contact to your opponent.  Ugh.  The IOC wants sports to be popular: they want ticket sales, they want broadcast ratings and ad revenue.  Karate kumite is too complex to be easily grasped by the casual viewer, and there will be great pressure to simplify and bastardise the rules and procedures, or else karate with be "one and done" as an Olympic sport.  

Most Olympic sports are either already popular (basketball, baseball) or are generally easy to grasp in concept: first acorss the finish line, farthest throw, highest jump ... that wins.  Intricate rules tend to be kept to a minimum.  (The exception is things like gymnastics, but that makes up for it by a lot of "ooh ahh" factor, and making judging appear as a "wet finger in the wind who did the best routine" gut reaction at the end, which people can cotton on to as well.)  

I may know nothing about basketball, but if you tell me that the ball going through the net is worth two points, I can watch the net and tell whether or not the ball goes through.  If you tell me that the scoring criterial for a kumite technique are:

a) Good form

b) Sporting attitude

c) Vigorous application

d) Awareness (ZANSHIN)

e) Good timing

f) Correct distance

Each of those criteria presents difficulties for the casual spectator to understand and know if what he saw met all the criteria.  (For example, "good form" is something it takes months or years to train karate students to recognise.  That's why good officials are so hard to find!)  But all of these criteria are necessary for scoring a point in kumite.  

Watch the pressure to water down our kumite to be more like the nonsense that is marketed to us under the TKD nameplate.

**********************

Kata?  Well, tournament kata is already far down the "speed trumps all" road, so the IOC can't really mess it up too much more.  (Never underestimate the IOC ... watch me eat my words!!).  I do like the point made above about team kata being very "spectator friendly" to the casual Olympic viewing audience ... I think they missed the boat there.

Iain Abernethy
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Ian H wrote:
Each of those criteria presents difficulties for the casual spectator to understand and know if what he saw met all the criteria.  (For example, "good form" is something it takes months or years to train karate students to recognise.  That's why good officials are so hard to find!)  But all of these criteria are necessary for scoring a point in kumite.

I think that’s a great point. Most people will not understand it. I once showed a video of a high level karate competition to a friend who was a professional rugby player. He was genuinely impressed with the athleticism, but made the comment, “It may be OK to watch if I could figure out what the hell is happening. If anything, they are too fast.”

He was, understandably, unable to figure out who had scored what during the explosive exchanges.

I really do think we karateka are getting overly concerned with this. It’s never going to be a huge spectator sport. And even during Olympic years (if it does become a permeant event) people are going to see a few minutes in a high-light reel at best. It’s not going to shift the public consciousness on karate one way or another.

All the best,

Iain