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WadoBen
WadoBen's picture
Kihon in a pragmatic syllabus

My clubs syllabus includes kihon which I consider "modern"  high kicks, double kicks, hook kicks, double back fists oppersite punch. Techniques that work well for kumite but are not very pragmatic.

my instructor also has no interst in bunkai, though I teach bunkai to my students I still have to teach them the none pragmatic kihon so they can grade. 

i was wondering what those of you who teach pragmatic karate teach in the way of kihon and if you think the "modern" kumite style kihon has a place in the pragmatic dojo?

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Ben,

as long as your students are aware of the context you'll be on the safe side.

I also do teach standard Shotokan Kihon. I find that to be an important tool to teach body awareness (shifting the bodyweight, coordinating arms and legs), body structure (hip and shoulder alignment, correct angles e.g. 90 deg. for the bending of the arm in techiques like Soto Uke or Uchi Uke) and so on. And that is of course important for the whole grading procedure.

I also use "modern Kumite style" Kihon combination in a pragmatic way and do the Kumite (I hate the term Bunkai) to show why I combined those techniques in that order I've shown. There I can explain topics like predictable response or principles of breaking balance, how to disrupt the partners body structure, locking, throwing and so on.

Regards Holger

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

Hi Ben

I would echo Holger. Breaking down activies and actions to isolate particular movements so as to train body mechanics and develop complex physical skills etc is a vital part of any complicated physical activity be it a martial Art, a sport or learning touch typing etc. Pragmatic martial arts are no different, and there is very definately a place for regular "Kihon" training as part of good training sylibus.

One of the reasons Kihon has had a bad press is that there was a tendancy in the popular martial arts for the perfection of Kihon becoming the prime reason for training, rather than a means-to-an-end. Shotokan is a good case in point, which as a style is a founding father of the 3 K's of karate dogma; Kata, Kumite and Kihon - a concept that completely misses the point of context (3k's being antithesis of pragmatic karate).

As is true in life, so it is true in Karate - Moderation in all things. You need to have Kihon (or basic form training) to provide the foundation for the systematic leaning of good technique, visualition and other associated skills - which then support whatever training goals you have; be it self-protection, fighting, sport etc...

Cheers

Tom

Black Tiger
Black Tiger's picture

For me Kihon is expected but perfection of technique isn't.

I agreed practice of bad technique is wrong BUT if one is more or less in the correct "area" then that's fine. I used to get frustrated when the Instructor in my Traditional Karate class used to walk around moving your hands/feet no more that 20cm and when asked "why" they responded because it has to be that way.

"Controlled" bunkai like the Ohyo Gumite etc in Wado Ryu or the 2-mans in Shotokan or ShitoRyu etc work because they are practiced over and over again but against anothe KarateKa who also knows the drill etc, falling on the floor etc at the correct moment etc. When one works more uncontrolled bunkai from more unrestrained attacks (NOT karate attacks) then the "opponent" doesn't land/stop in the same place ever" so one has to adapt etc.

I spared with a Shotokan Yudansha a few months ago, first time I'd done EKA/WKF/JKA sparring, as I'm use to knockdown as he tried one of his "bonefide" combinations from years of practice he got a Chudan Mae Geri that put him on the floor (not being egotistical) it just shows that one can't expect a controlled technique to work 100% of the time. Yes he got me a few times but in Knockdown, we always take a strike. I don't believe in the "one strike one kill" ethos that is there.

For me Kata holds everything that is required including Kihon and application of techniques.

I remember having a heated discussion years ago on another forum he was a 8th Dan Wado'ist lives in Austrailia who "chastised" me for watering down Wado Ryu and talked to me as if my 4 years of Wado was just 5 mins and I had no valid skills etc (I'll IM you the link to the exact post if its still there). So for the Original poster if you're happy to be concidered as "Freestyle" KarateKa as your amendments to your syllabus are no longer following the core of your RYU then go for it, jsut enjoy what your teaching. OSU.

WadoBen
WadoBen's picture

Thanks for your comments so far.

I understand the benifits of doing the standard kihon for getting correct body movements and posture, I just feel somewhat uncomfortable with it as I spend all my time telling my students the purpose of their kata techniques and the practicality of the moves, then I have to teach them the kihon of our syllabus which doesn't fit with my ideas of practical karate. If we did modern kumite then I wouldn't mine so much but the kumite I teach is kata based similar to what Iain teaches. 

On a side note I have read in places that goju ryu don't have much in the way of kihon and focus just on kata and bunkai can anyone confirm this for me?

Black Tiger
Black Tiger's picture

WadoBen wrote:
Thanks for your comments so far.

I understand the benifits of doing the standard kihon for getting correct body movements and posture, I just feel somewhat uncomfortable with it as I spend all my time telling my students the purpose of their kata techniques and the practicality of the moves, then I have to teach them the kihon of our syllabus which doesn't fit with my ideas of practical karate. If we did modern kumite then I wouldn't mine so much but the kumite I teach is kata based similar to what Iain teaches.

On a side note I have read in places that goju ryu don't have much in the way of kihon and focus just on kata and bunkai can anyone confirm this for me?

Sometimes looking outside your style will help you see what is already there. Ohtsuka Sensei mixed various components to create WadoRyu, I think he said something like "Karate to Wado is like a pinch of salt...." (I'm sure Iain can give the correct quote)

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Black Tiger wrote:
Sometimes looking outside your style will help you see what is already there. Ohtsuka Sensei mixed various components to create WadoRyu, I think he said something like "Karate to Wado is like a pinch of salt...." (I'm sure Iain can give the correct quote)

I think it was Jiro Otsuka (founder's son who later took his father's full name which can lead to the two getting confused) who said something along the lines of, "If Wado is a stew, then karate would be like a pinch of salt.” Obviously Wado has it’s Jujutsu component etc, but his father still called his art “Wado-Ryu Karate”  so that strikes me as a little incongruent … well as incongruent as calling a chicken stew, “salt water” if the sentiment expressed it to be taken literally.

There are some quarters of the Wado world that definitely downplay the karate side of it though. In those groups, kata are practised as exercises in movement and the direct application of those kata (i.e. the combative methods of the creators of those kata) are deemed irrelevant. So what, in my view, makes karate what it is – the combative methods and historical continuity provided by kata – is reduced to a “pinch of salt” level. I think we can see that in almost all styles though with some groups putting kata / bunkai at the very centre of what they do, and others either dropping it completely or relegating it to “performance only” practise. Karate as a whole – and the styles, and “styles within styles”, that exist within it – is a broad church and there is little overarching uniformity from one group to the next.

I agree that “cross training” can be a very useful exercise and it’s worth remembering that it was something that virtually all the past masters engaged in and encouraged.

As regard the topic of this thread generally, I see no problem with sport style kihon so long as it a labelled and understood as such. There’s nothing wrong with trying to give the students a wide skill set i.e. both self-protection skills and competitive skills too.

All the best,

Iain

simonb
simonb's picture

Taking as an example Iain's popular video (for reasons not to mentioned here!) demonstrating applications for Jion. If you take the basic techniques he is using jodan-uke/gyaku zuki (repeated) step forward and punch, this in simple form is kihon. "5 times across the hall, kiai last time" etc we've all done that.

You practise the kihon to get the form and then you practise what is hopefully a realistic way to use those techniques. Surely the kihon and the pragmatic are inextricably linked, in the same way as kata and its pragmatic use?

I am not a teacher, or a black belt, and stand ready to be corrected.

Cheers

Simon  

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Simon,

you are totally right. The pre Itosu school Karate was just Kata and its Kumite (the application of the moves). There was no Kihon.

Back then the teacher taught students individually and the way he did that was certainly something like "Put this leg here and that arm here". Then came the school classes and methods for teaching the masses were needed. So Itosu and his students invented Kihon, taking the movements out of the Kata giving them names, making techniques out of those movements. No you could tell the class "Do a downward sweep (Gedan Barai)" and every student knew what move was meant and how it had to be performed.

Regards Holger

simonb
simonb's picture

Thank you for the interesting and informative reply Holger.

Cheers

Simon  

stephen
stephen's picture

Hi,

My background is Wado, but I wear a white belt again these days. I've just started in Goju Ryu!

The club I attend has an Okinawan vibe to it, which is quite different to my previous experiences in Japanese karate. I haven't yet come across line work or "traditional" ippon kumite such as you might find in a Japanese style dojo.

It's kata, bunkai and ohyo all the way. I'm having a great time with it, by the way, and many of the applications wouldn't look out of place in a Naihanchi class, for example.

I still practice my Wado kata in my own time. I only train the "nine" (pinans, naihanchi, seishan, kushanku, chinto), but I'm looking forward to digging into the Goju forms. I'm learning Gekisai at the moment.

I don't feel as though anything is "missing" from my nine regular kata, I'm doing Goju because I always fancied doing it, and for me the club is the best one around which suits my needs.

Kihon waza can be trained in so many different ways (including through kata). And by doing basics you are working in a "pure" environment, you don't have to worry about getting whacked, so you can focus on good form, posture, relaxation, mechanics, co-ordination.... Sometimes I just imagine kihon as being a kata with just one or two techniques!

Mr P
Mr P's picture

As a shotokan practitioner I am well programmed into doing kihon and kihon combinations for the first part of the lesson and then moving on to the formal kumite excercises. Having been to a couple of Iain's seminars I enjoy the fact that the seminar gets straight down to the buisness of applying kata bunkai. I admire instructors who have the knowledge and confidence to do that. 

I am inspired by Stephens experiences of goju ryu lessons were they are just getting down to buisness with kata and bunkai. I wonder how many shotokan instructors have abandoned the practice of formal kihon and set kumite in favour of what's described above?