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Cataphract
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Kojo Ryu

Anybody interested in the history of karate will know the name Kojo.

Could this be the real thing? Looks great to me. It would shed some light on how karate came into existence. Does somebody know more about the recent history of Kojo ryu?

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

As someone who is not involved in Kojo-Ryu, at all, I don't have personal experience or an agenda on this matter, but I have seen and been privy to quite a bit of the drama surrounding it.

Kojo-Ryu has had a mysterious aura around it since Mark Bishop wrote about it, but at the time it was also stil being taught by the Kojo family. These days, it is a touchy subject, as the Kojo family no longer teaches it at all, and the two "biggest-name" people still teaching it claim that the other is a fraud who knows nothing of the "true Kojo-Ryu."  One of them is Hayashi Shingo, seen in the video above, and the other is Yabiku Takaya. There is a third--Yamada Michio--who supposedly has the support of the Kojo family, and he says that this video is not real Kojo-Ryu. Irimaji Seiji learned Kojo-Ryu, and went on to found Koshin-Ryu, but I'm not sure how much he carried over. Additionally, there have been some high ranks in Kojo-Ryu given out in exchange for large sums of money, with questionable levels of skill and experience in the art. As I understand it, the huge amount of drama surrounding the style has upset the Kojo family, and they have asked all people calling what they do "Kojo-Ryu" to stop using their family name. I wouldn't be surprised if some people involved in the drama have Google Alerts set up for the style and the names involved, and will pop in and throw their hats in the ring in support of their side. All of this makes it very difficult to figure out a legitimate source for the art.

Basically, from a historical perspective, we may never know who is actually teaching Kojo-Ryu the way it was intended, if anyone. It's entirely possible that much of the original application and training practices have been lost. Most likely, all of the people involved have pieces of the puzzle, but I doubt we will ever be able to say, with certainty, that any one of them has the full story. All we can do is evaluate what we see through the lenses of practicality, and known historical statements and practices, to determine what material is valuable and possibly authentic.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Noah,

That’s a very informative and well written post! Thanks for giving all that information in a way that is very diplomatic and sensitive to the “politics” of the situation.

All the best,

Iain

Cataphract
Cataphract's picture

Thanks a lot. That was clarifying (and disenchanting).

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Mysterious origins and secrets are cool, and all, but they don't really further the art, so while it may be disenchanting, the truth is important. As far as the video, itself, they are doing all three Naihanchi kata, which are not an original part of Kojo-Ryu, especially considering the fact that the second and third variants were likely developed by Itosu. Adding to that the Naihanchi Shodan they do is the Itosu version, in shiko-dachi rather than Naihanchi-dachi, which some of Itosu’s students elected to use, as it was the older method. The other kata are all specific to Kojo-Ryu, so I can’t comment on them except to say that both sides say the other side doesn’t do them correctly. Some of the kata contain a number of straight chudan punches, as well as the “capital I” enbusen, which I tend to associate with Itosu, for whatever that’s worth. Aside from those observations, there aren’t really any movements that are unique or unusual in the grander scheme of karate kata that exist today, so it’s just a matter of looking at the way the movements fit together. The drills shown are nothing more than fairly standard basics you can see in material from people like Motobu to modern Shotokan people. I’m not expert with the jo, but the techniques shown with it are also pretty standard for what I’ve seen. Even a member of the Kojo family stated, in Mark BIshop's book, that there really are no secrets--he went to a Japanese jujutsu school when he was in university, and found that they taught a "secret" method for defending chokes from his family style to white belts, and considered it to be a fundamental, basic method.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Wastelander wrote:
Mysterious origins and secrets are cool, and all, but they don't really further the art, so while it may be disenchanting, the truth is important.

Some good observations in that posts. I also like, and fully agree with, the above sentiment.

Away from this specific issue, karate does need to recognise its myths as myths. Karate is not the art of the unarmed Okinawan resistance, karate does not find its ultimate origins in the Shaolin temple with Bodhidharma, Zen and karate are not “one”, board breaking is not a result of trying to punch through wooden armour, and so on. We also need to caution against new myths i.e. hidden pressure point charts revealing the “secrets” that were kept back from westerners, family styles with traceable linages back to the 14th century, etc.

The truth is far more delightful and informative.

All the best,

Iain

Cataphract
Cataphract's picture

Agreed, but having an earlier iteration of the same is great for every kind of reverse engineering. It would be nice to find authentic material from the Kojo dojo. Every fighting system is just a bag of tricks. Those tricks are based on a limited set of biomechanics. As long as it improves one's understanding of those mechanics, comparing and conjecturing seems like a worthwhile activity, even when barking up the wrong tree. I often find techniques from kung fu/sambo/silat etc. and think: Yeah, straight out of a kata.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Oh, I don't dispute the fact that older material is very beneficial to have--that's why books like Itoman Morinobu's are so valuable. It's just that this particular system is too muddled to determine what's older and what's newer. KishimotoDi and Motobu UdunDi are much clearer.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

I fully agree that access to older material can be helpful from the perspective of enhancing overall understanding, but we need to avoid the trap of thinking older = purer = better.

No one is doing that in this thread; I’m just pointing out that we do see that quite a bit in the wider traditional martial arts world. The goal shifts from optimum function to confused notions of “authenticity” and “purity”.

The past masters were not seeking to preserve “unbroken line of perfection”; they were pragmatists and innovators. Perhaps ironically, the “old styles” some seek to emulate came into being because of this seeking of optimum function. I see no reason why this notion of “traditional change” should stop; not do I see any reason why something older should be automatically be held as being superior to something newer.

More time to evolve and the combined contributions of subsequent generations tends to make the “newer” better in all other fields (science, medicine, technology, etc.). Each generation builds on the last. They don’t reject and restart (what is useful is kept); nor do they hark back to the past through rose tinted spectacles i.e. “This horse and cart is older, purer and therefore better than my car”. I can’t see why martial arts should be any different.

I think Ed Parker summed it up beast when he said, “Pure karate is when pure fist meets pure face”.

All the best,

Iain

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

Buyer beware, as you often get what you pay for.  I'm just throwing that out.  As there is a young lad on the internet that says he was trained in Kojo-Ryu and will often teach seminars on the kata.  This same lad once stated he was a 9th Dan in Shotokan and Ninjutsu at around age 18.  He's older now but will still sell you his services.

Patrick McCarthy Hanshi posted this video once, he seemed to believe it was the real deal, so that's good enough for me.

marcosllanes
marcosllanes's picture

Great thread going on here; I would like to contribute with what I know:

First, the disclosure: I'm part of the Koshinkan organization that teaches Kojo Ryu here in the states. Please, don't stop reading :-)

Facts about Hayashi sensei (this comes out of an interview he gave, documented in the Budo Karate IRKRS 2nd Quarter 2003 ):

  • Hayashi Sensei (the gentlemen in the video) was indeed a direct(public) student of Kafu (Yoshitomi) Koshiro (Kojo) which was the style's head before his son took over (Shiregu Koshiro) .  Hayashi sensei went to okinana for business (he was a dentist) in 1968 and trained there for aprox. 1 year, then he went back to mainland. Before that he had no previous Karate experience nor he liked it to begin with.
    • In those times, the Kojo-Ryu material would start by teaching Chibana Sensei's Shorin Ryu Katas and after a while, and dependeing on the student, the original Kojo katas were taught.
      • There were actually a handful of studens that knew all 6 katas, all of them Okinawans at the time
  • Hayashi sensei did brought Kafu Kojo sensei a few times to his home town in Tottori Japan over the course of the next years but was exporadic because of the cost involved with traveling at that time. Hayashi sensei did travel to okinawa a few times in bussines capacity until 1972 but made the time to stop by the Kojo dojo to get more instruction

This is the summary, the reference listed has way more details. In my opinon, what happend here is simple, at a time where video, internet, email, etc weren't an option, Hayashi sensei had to make do with the instruction he got. I personally respect the loyalty he has shown to the style and his dedication, also, people that know him personall had commented that he is a great guy.

Facts about Takaya Yabiku Sensei 

  • When Hayashi sensei joined the Kojo dojo, among the existent students was Irimaji Seiji sensei which was one of the senior ones
  • Kafu Kojo sensei and Irimaji sensei worked in a Taxi company as well as Yakaya Yabiku sensei (he was a driver at the time).
    • This is how Yabiku sensei got to know Irimaji  and Kafu Sensei and got involved with Kojo Ryu
    • The three of them will get together in thier down time in the taxi base and train, then. Yakibu sensei would also go to the public Kojo dojo for formal training
  • Irimaji sensei, with the Kafu sensei approval, went to open his own dojo in the 70's and started teaching Kojo-Ryu. Out of respect to his teacher, he called the dojo Koshin-Kan (Koshin --> Koshiro). 
    • This happend because the public Kojo dojo was closed in the 70's and Irimaji sensei wanted to keep the style alive and the teachings
    • Irimaji sensei dojo's was closed short after and the instruction became private yet again
  • Kafu kojo sensei sent Yabiku sensei to continue his studies with irimaji sensei and he did so from that time until Irimaji sensei got sick (dont know exclty when that happened but was probably early 2000's)
  • Irimiaji sensei and Yabiku sensei continued training in private and would frequently visit the Kojo's
  • Kafu Kojo sense personally promoted both of them to the ranks they hold today
    • Important to mention that the Kojos itself didn't teach in a public setting ever again after the 70's and the overall interest for the family art inside the family was, sadly, very low
  • In 1999 Hoshiyama sensei (head of the koshinkan USA) meet Yabiku sensei during that year's trip to okinawa. The rest is history and can be found here

Now, the technical aspect:

  • The Katas that Yabiku sensei taught to Hoshiyama sensei are different from what we see in the Hayashi sensei's video; the execution and timing its also different. What we know is inline with the Okinawan way, for instance, using chinkushi, rather than kime, relaxation, etc..
  • Yabiku sensei also taught him the applications he knew for those Katas which its also different from what it's presented in the video
    • Diffrences compared to what we know is the use of open hand, almost always, the use of vital point striking and seizing, head and hair manipulation, use of explicit weapons and improvised ones like the Jiffa (hearpin), etc..

That's just the gist of it.

Hope I could share some light into this matter that without doubts, is as complex as human interactions are :-)

Cataphract
Cataphract's picture

Thank you. That makes the situatuation somewhat clearer.