13 posts / 0 new
Last post
Visitor (not verified)
Visitor's picture
light contact sparring and body mechanics, help

I'm trying to come up with a light to medium contact sparring exercise that would force myself and my partner to put their full body weight into our techniques in a spontaneous free sparring type platform.

Full contact is out of the question right now, because I only have one serious training partner and we don't want to break each other.

Any ideas?

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

I don't believe there is a way really, I would say 1) impact training without a partner and 2) limited full contact sparring with body armor would likely give you a good sense of the body mechanics that work in dyamic situations. It's gonna  a ballpark thing, it won't be exact, but if you are just looking to feel and give full power shots without injury then sticking to body level stuff wearing armor will do that..be careful about knees though, these are one thing i'e taken through the armor and been the worse for wear.

Of course you can add in head level stuff too, but personally I would never do full power anything to the head in training unless you have access to something like a bulletman suit etc., in which case you really can go full bore, but it will not be sparring really..

Holgersen (not verified)
Visitor's picture

I've decided to experiment with the idea of only initiating the mechanics of a strike until the contact point (fist, foot, elbow, etc) is already touching the intended target. The strike should then be shallow enough that it doesn't do massive damage, but still be uncomfortable enough to not just shrug off like techniques thrown in a light contact setting.

Thoughts?

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Here's my suggestion for going without gear and what you might be looking for:

Go really slow, but both people act on a beat, if you've ever done the One Step drill that Rory MIller does, it is basically that drill only  the partners act simlutaneously, rather than with turns. Sometimes it's easier to have someone "count" that isn't doing the drill, just "one", "one" "one" etc. and on each beat it is time for the partners to act. Of course, the drill is quite artificial in many dimension, but you can do it withut sacrificing follow trhough of techniques, and still keeping (reasonably) safe.  The trick is, you HAVE to go slow, and adhere to the artificial timing  for it to work. I have not had success doing this with lower belts, but higher ranks seem to be able to manage it, and it's a very good drill for what I think you are trying to do.

Holgersen (not verified)
Visitor's picture

That might work. Is there a website where I could see an example? Would the drill be suited for a fighting distance of head butting range? My style's strategy puts us in that range for a majority of techniques the farthest out being arms length.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Because of the slow speed of the drill, you can literally do any technique within it.

This is the drill, here it's being done with people taking turns, I am talking about the same drill, done simultaneously, basically to a "count". The only problem is, you cannot "cheat" by readjusting once the count has been made.

You totally forgo speed and contact, but as you can see body mechanics are pretty intact.

Gary Chamberlain
Gary Chamberlain's picture

I must admit that (as an adult) I found little use for light sparring.  In all sports people seem to agree the mental side is the most important, so I found getting stuck in and taking a few blows - without loss of enthusiasm - gave the most mental & physical benefits.  My goal was to be a stronger competitor though, not self-defence.

We use the knockdown / sabaki challenge rules at '80%'.  Enough to hurt but not to disable.  If I put two students together where there's a huge difference in skill, I restrict the techniques available to level things out a bit.  With a bit of imagination the possibilities of improving in relative safety are endless.

One thing that's always pointed out about these systems is the 'no face punches' rule, neccessary IMO with bare knuckles.  We just use a palm heel to the forehead to help people remember to guard the face - without the damage.

Not perfect, but 'hard but safe'.  No expensive armour required, just groin, mouth and shin and instep protection.

Gary

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

I like knockdown sparring, but it is a totally different animal than something like this drill, completely different purpose I think.

Gary Chamberlain
Gary Chamberlain's picture

Zach

Absolutely.

Just throwing my 2p in.

Do you find slow drills build the neccessary controlled aggression etc?  I understand the technical benefit of practising skills slowly then banging pads full bore, but where/how do they meet in the middle?

Gary

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

No, they dont build agression at all, that's not what they are meant to do, and unless i'm mistaken that doesn't seem to be part of what Holgersen is asking about. I mentnioned going with body armor, and this dril for doing things without gear..just my preference.

Basically it's way to 1) practice using any technique, i.e. there is no limit to what can safely be done (because you are going so slowly), and 2) it forces you to move efficiently, in one step. I brought it up here because Holgersen is asking about practicing some kind of sparring without the need to "pull punches" -or- go full contact. The fact is (and this includes knockdown Karate) that the harder you go, the more concessions you make for safety. The nice thing about this drill is that because it is so slow, you don't need to make any of those concessions...so of course, you make concessions somewhere else - realistic speed and contact. That doesn't make the drill a replacement for anything, it has some specific, and very good uses, and nearly everyone I know who has adopted it has gotten something fairly tangible out of it.

Here's an old post on it from Rory MIller, I learned the drill from his seminars, and from my teacher.

http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/search?q=one+step

Rory has been in more "real" situations than nearly anyone i've met, and he thinks the drill is valuable..so, I take him at his word.

Another thing worth thinking about, effort expended isn't always equal to benefit received, menaing, just because something is more intense, harder, whatever..does not neccessarily mean it will acheive whatever your training goals are. Personally, I currently adhere to the idea that you should have roughly equal training in light, heavy, and medium for whatever you are doing, adjusted to your goals.

"Harder is better" is a simple answer, but i'm not sure it's correct in all instances. There is no "best" kind of sparring IMO, there are various ways of doing things depending on someone's goals, and it doesn't sound like Holgersen's goal is full contact.

Of course, it IS the correct answer to learn knockdown Karate, but that is its own set of goals, isn't it?

We all know (I think) that some level of real contact and intensity is important.

Gary Chamberlain
Gary Chamberlain's picture

Zach

Not questioning the drills usefulness in any way, or the experience of those that advocate it.

Sparring (to me) is a free flowing exchange of techniques where a winner does not have to be found.  It's for mutual benefit where the contact levels and available techniques can be adjusted to suit.  

And fun too.

smiley

Gary

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

I can surely get behind that defintion!

Holgersen (not verified)
Visitor's picture

My training partner and I have been playing around with an exercise that is kind of like what has been mentioned above.

I guess you might call it a modified push hands. Maybe.

All you really need is head gear, because the possibility of getting knocked down is very much higher than I had originally suspected.

Basically it's like a regular all in sparring match. Throws, submissions, grabs and strikes are all allowed. The only provision is that you can only start a strike once you touch your partner's body, so no wind up or time to accelerate. An example would be if I wanted to strike my partner, I would close distance place my fist on their stomach and then put my body weight into it like I was punching at full force along with an appropriate pull of my other hand or stripping action to clear a target. I'd like to point out that you don't want to try and use muscle power. It can still work, but you end up tired very fast.

The nice thing about the exercise is that it makes you commit to your techniques, and it's very hard to ignore techniques that land on you. Mostly because you end up with hundreds of pounds of weight focused into your partner's knuckles, which are drilling their way through your stomach, or your head.

It's also a lot easier to practice techniques from the kata we practice and they suddenly work rather easily.

I really have to stress the use of head gear especially if you practice on hardwood, at least at first.

The first time we tried it, I almost sent my partner head first into my deck railing and they sent me into a wall. We usually don't have such an easy time pushing each other around either, which is why we were so surprised.

I'd give it a shot. We've liked it so much we've made it our main form of sparring.