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deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture
Stepping on Feet

This is a sparring question (might be very limited carry-over for self-protection).  I know that we have a lot of people on here who spar/train/compete under many different rulesets.  I'm just trying to get a sense of how gym etiquette varies from place to place and rule set to rule set.  

Today I was lucky enough to work with a great group of local martial artists.  All of them are much superior fighters to me in terms of skillset, experience, everything that matters.  We did quite a bit of striking sparring.  (I have trained with these men before but never striking.)  We have much different styles.  Almost all of them are Muay Thai.  One guy might have had an MMA background, I couldn't tell.

When I am sparring with a southpaw, I will frequently step on the lead foot with my foot.  Not stomping on it or doing it to injure, just stepping on it to trap it for a split second.  I pair it with a jab (either to the head or the the body).  This is 100% intentional and I use it as a set-up to get my opponent worrying about his footwork.    

I feel like I also do it sometimes when I'm sparring another right-hander, but then it's more of a chance thing and I don't really plan it, it just sort of happens as I work the angles.    

Anyway, I found myself using that a lot today.  Apparently it is considered to be a dirty move in some gyms.  These guys didn't mind (they figured it out pretty quickly), but they gave me some friendly advice to be careful using it with some fighters, because apparently some people get really pissed off by it and consider it a major foul.  

I knew it was illegal in boxing but I thought it was fair game pretty much everywhere else.  Truth be told, it is such an ingrained habit at this point that it will be tough not to do it.  Against less experienced fighters it can be very effective.  (To be clear, I'm not suggesting that this is a magic bullet or that this in any way leveled the playing field for me today--those guys were toying with me and the skill gap was enormous.) 

My question is:  do you guys use this same technique in your ruleset?  Is this considered dirty fighting (maybe OK for self-protection, not OK for friendly sparring)?  Maybe an annoying distraction to throw away so you can focus on more important things?  Banned under your competition rules? 

Obviously, I'm not going to use it anymore with these guys, I want to have them as mentors and I don't want to piss them off.  But I just want to get a sens on this so I'll know when I visit other places in the future.

Thanks everyone.

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Whenever I trained (sporting) from boxing, mt or wrestling stepping on toes is considered inappropriate or rude. In self defence everything goes in my opinion.

Kind regards

Les

deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture

Thanks Les, I appreciate the response.  (I agree, I wouldn't use that tactic in wrestling.) 

I don't know very much about Muay Thai so I didn't realize that was against their custom.  Good thing I found this out the easy way.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

We have non-consensual violence (self-protection) and consensual violence (fighting / duelling).  When engaging on construal exchanges, it needs to be clear what both people understand they have consented to.

If a person has an expectation that that certain methods are excluded, they can get irked when those methods suddenly appear. For example, boxers are happy to punch each other …but you’ll make a judoka unhappy if you punch them during randori. Likewise, if you throw and pin a boxer during a spar, they won’t be happy.

deltabluesman wrote:
When I am sparring with a southpaw, I will frequently step on the lead foot with my foot …

… Apparently it is considered to be a dirty move in some gyms.  These guys didn't mind (they figured it out pretty quickly), but they gave me some friendly advice to be careful using it with some fighters, because apparently some people get really pissed off by it and consider it a major foul.

In some places, standing on the feet will be fine; but not everywhere.

In our dojo it would be considered fair game; providing it was done safely and not as a heel on instep, bone-breaking stamp.

All the best,

Iain

Anf
Anf's picture

It's not allowed in our rules. What would happen at our club if someone broke the rules more than once and got away with it, the opponent will most likely stop confirming to the rules too.

deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture

Iain and Anf, thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.  Yes, this was done safely--no significant impact, just a way to trap it for a second.  And of course, you're right, I should have been more thorough in asking about their expectations and getting their feedback.  If it were a class, I would have been more careful about reading rules ahead of time, but because this was an informal group, I just kind of showed up.

Anf, your point is well taken, that's 100% fair.  In this case, the tricky thing is that it's apparently an entirely legal move.  It's not against their rules, but it is seen as annoying/disrespectful.  So I guess it's a bit of a grey area. 

Either way, lesson learned.  It's no problem for me to drop this from the toolkit, at least for now, and focus more on fundamentals.  I'm sure I'll benefit from a different approach and I can always work it back in if the opportunity presents itself. 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

deltabluesman wrote:
It's no problem for me to drop this from the toolkit, at least for now, and focus more on fundamentals.

I do find moving around various restrictive forms of sparing can be very valuable. By limiting access to a certain skillset, particularly “go to moves”, it can help broaden technical and tactical range.

deltabluesman wrote:
I'm sure I'll benefit from a different approach and I can always work it back in if the opportunity presents itself.

Definitely. Isolate, Eliminate, Integrate.

Isolate: Focus on one specific skill

Eliminate: Omit one specific skill.

Integrate: Having learnt lessons from the above, bring those lessons back into the whole.

All the best,

Iain

Anf
Anf's picture

deltabluesman wrote:
Anf, your point is well taken, that's 100% fair.  In this case, the tricky thing is that it's apparently an entirely legal move.  It's not against their rules, but it is seen as annoying/disrespectful.  So I guess it's a bit of a grey area.

Sorry I'd misunderstood. If it is allowed in their rules then it is fair play. If it annoys someone that just means they aren't happy with their club rules surely. I could get annoyed if someone blocks my attack and counters, punching me in the stomach in the process. If I were to get annoyed by such I'd have 2 options, either refuse to spar, or find a club with different rules. If I did the latter, who knows, I might get annoyed if someone takes me down during sparring. If all participants understand and comply with the rules, then there is no issue in my opinion.

PASmith
PASmith's picture

Stepping on toes is something I like but use sparingly. And only really with certain people that I know will take it in the cheeky way I intend. I don't do it on strangers as I know it can annoy (which is what's intended really).

A couple of weeks back I taught a sparring session where I basically showed everyone in the club what I'm trying to do when I spar (crowd them into a corner or side, find a dominant angle, etc). One of the warm up activities was shoulder/knee tap "sparring" where I included the option to tread on toes to prevent evasion. So now they know I like a sly toe tread to open up a quick point score. :)

Tau
Tau's picture

My first martial art was Lau Gar and we used to spar in that and did some Kickboxing alongside. Stepping on the foot ("foot trapping") was normal. 

There is a high danger element to this and for that reason I don't allow it in the Kickboxing sparring that I teach now. If I were to trap your foot and you were to lose balance then a severe ankle fracture is very possible. I do, however, have it in the syllabus so as students recognise it should be done to them in competition. My view is it's matter of balancing risk/reward in safety.

For pragmatic training, which is my focus, it's fair game precisely because of the danger element (to uke) but again safety measures are in place.

Off on a tangent, I suppose rule sets and perceptions of "dirty" techniques vary considerably and in the case of the latter is subjective. When I did Taekwondo blocking kicks by using the shin was legal but was frowned upon as it was unsportsmanly or something. I found it ironic considering the motion is heavily present in their patterns (Won Hyo being the earliest example.) Because it wasn't illegal I used it lots because it riled some of my competitors.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

We don't do it a lot in sparring, but it is allowed, and we work it here and there--you just have to be careful and ready to remove your foot from theirs if they lose their balance. It shows up a bit more in kata application. I actually wrote an article on it, a while back, for those who might be interested:

https://www.karateobsession.com/2014/12/stepping-on-toes.html

One of the videos has since been removed from YouTube, but it still goes over several examples

Tau
Tau's picture

Thinking about it I have bunkai to this. Kind of. I do both Heian and Pinan versions of kata. In the version Pinan Yondan that I do the concluding supposed bunkai is to step heel on toes then use the cat stance foot position to push on the attacker's ankle. With a subtle weight shift forward and use of the shuto this is an intentional off balance / ankle fracture technique.

deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture

Really appreciate the feedback and replies, a lot of great information in this thread.

PA Smith, it's funny that you mention the shoulder tap/knee tap drill.  Those exact drills are part of our standard warm up at my local school and we use them a lot (sometimes blocking is allowed, but usually not).  I agree, stepping on the feet is very effective in that drill when they are jumping/running away from you. 

deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture

Tau, thanks for the reply, great post.  It's actually never occurred to me that this is a safety risk.  But I see what you mean...a potential for the ankle getting injured as the person falls with the foot still trapped.  Fortunately, this has never happened with any of my training partners, but I'll definitely keep it in mind.  I could see that becoming more of a risk as you step up the level of contact--something like, you're sparring hard, maybe you land a good shot on the jaw, opponent loses balance and twists the trapped ankle while falling.    

deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture

Wastelander,

Superb article.  Excellent coverage of so many different angles--the history, use in other contexts, use in mma.  I'll have to file this one away for future reference.  I was particularly impressed by the Gonzaga clip.  I was unaware that it had ever been used successfully in the mma world.  And very impressive to land it so smoothly with the right hand power punch.  As you say in the article, maybe it was unintentional, but either way, the effect was clear.