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Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture
student frustrations

I have a long running issue I could use some advice on.

A bulk of our class time right nowis working bunkai at various rank-appropriate contact levels, in various ways..without fail though, we tend to try to actually get competent at something before dialing up the intensity, or adding any new elements and variables. We do plenty of "messy" stuff, but when working actual material from kata to simply learn mechanics, I try to keep the work clean. I have one student who just doesn't get it, he goes outside the drill constantly, from the first attempt at trying it, "cheats" whatever we are doing, and seems to not grasp that what he is doing isn't productive. .I've tried explaining how a concept of progressive training works to him, and that each thing we do serves a certain purpose, and that if I am asking him to stay within certain parameters, there's a good reason.

To give an example, imagine practicing or learning a technique where you are pracitcing some movement against a straight punch, or a haymaker. When the haymakers comes he tries to loop his hand past your gaurd, wedge, whatever repeatedly in order to kind of tap your head and "get" you, in a bizarre way that would have no effect. When straight punching, pushing, grabbing or similar.. well, imagine trying to work your stuff with someone who is basically standing in front of you throwing a series of erratic jabs and you get the idea. I've been able to get around some of this by simply altering how we practice (range, position etc.) whatever we are learning..but often there are some things where simply no one wants to work with him due to this kind of thing, and I can see the frustrated expressions after a few minutes.

However, the behavior continues and it basically means that at any given time one senior has to work with him, and generally no juniors because he is simply to "outside the box" for anyone but a senior to handle working with him. For anyone who has had a similar situation, i'm curious if there is some magic bullet I haven't tried.

He is a very good student, extremely dedicated, bright, and with great questions, but this has been a constant sumbling block. I don't think it's his attitude exactly, but sometimes I think he is being incredulous mainly because he doesn't understand where resistance is appropriate in training, and where it is not. Whatever the case, i've talked to him about it enough that I don't feel that will do much good anymore, and I assume he's acting in good faith, he is a really great guy, and one of my favorite students.

For some reason he can't seem to stop though.

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

dont let him do any partner work, explain why and he will either change or leave.

Jason Lester
Jason Lester's picture

Hi Zach,

Jims right, get him doing stuff were he cant change or talk. You are the Sensei, individuals like this wouldnt last 5 mins in Japan or Okinawa, i have a student just like yours, but ive told him straight, if he dont like what we are doing go somewere else. When teaching your own children of friends it can create problems, however, like i tell my partner (girlfriend) whom is very dedicated to the art, in the Dojo i am not her partner, im her teacher and will not treat her any different to anyone else. If she dont like it, she knows were the door is, simple as.

Kind regards,

Jason

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

That's just it guys, I don't want him to leave..he is a great guy and in many ways one of the most persistent students i've had. He has had some real setbacks that would make most people quit for good, and has continued coming to class..I like the guy, he just isn't getting it and it's frustrating.

I just don't know how to address any more than I have, he's just so erratic that it is difficult for almost anyone to work with im, part of it is also a coordination thing, he has a similar issue with kata sometimes. I dont' want to assume the worst, there may be some element of "testing" on his part, but I don't think it's much.

Matt Perlingiero
Matt Perlingiero's picture

What does he say when you ask him about it?

harlan
harlan's picture

Can't say much online/publicly, but experiencing a similar situation. The smaller the dojo, the more 'value' we place on the students that show up and train. Hence, the tendency to overthink, justify, etc.  ('Is it a mental impairment, youth and inexperience, or maybe I haven't articulated the purpose/parameter/expectations for partner/drill work?') He gets 'corrections' during a class with senior sempai, and straightens out for a class...but then it's back to same pattern. The end result of this is that students enjoy his company, but don't want to train with him - and he gets more hand's on time with sensei than anyone else. Hmmmmm....as junior sempai, I keep my mouth shut.

I have a soft spot for young people, and if under 30 and only a few years of training - would be doing the same thing (plugging along and asking for input).

But a seasoned student? My class and my time - he would be gone.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

He's not young, newer to Karate but not young, he's older than me.

Far as what the says, he basically just says he keeps trying but can't stop the erratic movement etc..i'm inclined to believe him.  I'm just curious if there some method of breaking things down that I haven't tried. I don't think it's totally intentional, there are some things - like for instance he moves against joint manipulations etc. and ends up hurting himself sometimes due to it, it seems almost reflexive for him to innapropriately resist.

There's really no way i'd ask this guy to leave, that's the reason i'm asking for suggestions..he's staying, i'm just wondering if there's an easier way to handle it.

harlan
harlan's picture

So, giving him the benefit of the doubt, neurologically, he can't do a simple, prescribed response (using the haymaker example above) in a repetative manner, with in-class corrections...and stick to the drill? Confront him about it and ask if he thinks it's an age thing. If can't change or adjust, he should go to privates and less class time - and not hold back others.

I had an 80+ year old female kobudo student who had the desire, but neurologically degraded to the point of not being able to function. Since my sessions are privates anyway, I was willing to train with her, no matter how slow and repetative, but she bowed out, stating 'I started too late.'

And Goju, YOUR goju, is much more sophisticated. My above example (my sempai) sounds VERY much like yours...and I'm inclined to think that some people 'get it' mentally...but physically never will. I'm curious what the seasoned folks here will suggest. Good thread.

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Hi Zach.

Has the guy in question got any learning disorders.  I don't mean intelligence, I'm thinking something along the lines of an attention disorder.  I have a junior member who sounds very similar. He's a smashing lad but whilst he can take on board the information for a Bunkai drill as soon as they start he begins "changing" the drill which obviously makes it difficult for his partner. 

I decided to try and reverse engineer things for want of a better phrase.  I would show him what it was like to be on the receiving end of his strange "changes" whilst explaining why we do things the way we do.  It's an ongoing project but I have definitely seen improvements. He has also attempted to spoil an application if I'm using him as uke, funnily enough when pressure (gentle) is being applied to joints.  As he is a junior I have no choice but to back out of the demo. 

His mother explained that because of his "behaviour" he had left two karate clubs previously as the instructors didn't have the patience for him.  He's been with me for eighteen months now so something is working. 

I like your attitude of the guy won't be leaving and you WILL crack this, I think that's a good place to start. 

Basically then, is the person in question aware of how it feels to be his training partner.  If not maybe that could be an option. 

A very difficult problem, I hope this helps and I wish you luck. 

Regards 

Mark

Matt Perlingiero
Matt Perlingiero's picture

There's a lady in my dojo that has a similar affliction.  Whenever she has to concentrate on doing something, she loses most of her motor skills and she becomes a danger to whoever she's working with.  Interestingly, she is allowed to drive.

I say do private work with him as harlan suggests.  If it's indeed a neurological thing, it's possible that you could overcome it by taking baby-steps for a long period of time.  Don't give him new things to work on, take one thing and work on it with him -forever- if you have to.  A concept that you might try is slowing down to tai-chi speeds.  Perhaps through this he'll be able to gain more control over time.

By doing this you are removing disruption from the class so the others are not impeded, and it gives him the best help that you can personally give him.  I would also suggest that -you- come to terms with the fact that it may be something that you can't help him with.  That doesn't mean I advise you to give up on him, but understand what you're setting yourself up against.  It's good to see someone so dedicated ot their students.

Good luck, and I hope for the best for both of you.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Thanks Matt, you are describing it to a T, sounds like the exact same situation, he actually gets much worse when he tries to concentrate.  I came to the conclusion long ago that I can't judge my performance as a teacher based on this one person so that's covered, sometimes I just feel like we've spent a long time now (near two years I think) spinning our wheels because I haven't found a way to get past these problems. It's possible I guess that there is no way past them other than patience, and sometimes I have to remind myself that this person is definitely getting something out of being there, even if it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard i've set in my own head.  I'm going to try the private lessons thing, and slowing things down tot he exterme, and see how that goes.

Mark, again..sounds like the same thing..down to the joint thing and everything, basically if I use him as a demo partner at best  I cannot demonstrate the technique in question because I have to respond to whatever random alteration in his movement, at worst I have to choose between cranking up the volume beyond an appropriate level, or simply stopping.

I do believe it is a learning disorder, or maybe a learning difficulty, no idea if it qualifies as a disorder, he seems to have some issues with kinaesthetic learning.

I should mention here< I am much more used to teaching Karate to..basically peers in other martial arts, my class started as mostly Jujutsu shodans that wanted to learn some Karate, and I have to admit, I am NOT strong with teaching beginners period, which makes a a situation like this all the more challenging.

But yeah, i would never kick him out for this, as far as i'm concerned this is just part of his journey, we all have our stuff we have to work on in the dojo and this is his, IMO unless it's done in bad faith we should respect people's efforts, even if we aren't ok with the results every time. Having persistence and being kind with your dojo mates is my only criteria for coming to class, I don't have competency requirements for attendance.

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

ah now it's starting to unfold, the only reason isuggested he trained on his own is to highlight his problem shouldnt effect other students, if he was just being awkward- which by the sounds of it he isnt.

This is a much more significant problem, if his attitude and attendance are good and he is a nice guy etc, erm I dunno.....................

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

shoshinkanuk wrote:

ah now it's starting to unfold, the only reason isuggested he trained on his own is to highlight his problem shouldnt effect other students, if he was just being awkward- which by the sounds of it he isnt.

This is a much more significant problem, if his attitude and attendance are good and he is a nice guy etc, erm I dunno.....................

Yep, that's the conundrum, if I didn't care about his being there one way or the other i'd do my predictable "deal with it or leave" type approach, the problem here is that I think he's doing his best to deal with it, but not getting anywhere.