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Joseph O'Neill
Joseph O'Neill's picture
Teaching locks and chokes to children

Hi everyone, 

I've looked into this online, and the consensus I've seen from judo/jujitsu is generally not to teach joint manipulations like arm bars, as well as chokes, to children under the age of around 14 due to the increased risk of injury because they're not fully developed.

My question therefore is: For those of you who teach these kinds of techniques, and also teach children, how do you get them practicing these techniques - and if they're in the grading requirements how do you assess them? 

Thanks,

Joe.

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

Hi Joe, I have two sets of requirements in my syllabus - junior (under 16) and senior (16 & over). In the junior syllabus, we don't do any locking, neck crank, and blood or air deprivation.

However, if I deem a 14-year-old is mature and responsible (more commonly adolescent girls) AND they are comfortable with it then they will do some senior-level work in which they apply the techniques to a 16+ partner; no receiving techniques until 16+.

The junior adapted syllabus, takes the senior sequence and changes for age relevance e.g. I use Iain's Heian Godan neck crank bunkai for the seniors but for the juniors, we adapt it to a shoulder based spin. 

Kindest Regards,

Ally

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

My Sensei included some simple joint locks in the youth classes, so I have, as well, but always slow and controlled. Even in my first dojo, everyone learned at least one armbar by orange belt, regardless of age. Kids were taught locks in Judo, as well, in my experience. Chokes we might occasionally show, just so they know they exist, but wouldn't teach until the kids were around green belt, and by that time they've had a good while to develop control. Thankfully, it's never been a problem--adults have been more likely to hurt each other by accident than the kids, regardless of what type of technique it is :P

Tau
Tau's picture

I wrote about this in my book. To quote the main bit of text:

DO NOT PERFORM JOINT LOCKS ON CHILDREN!

I repeat

DO NOT PERFORM JOINT LOCKS ON CHILDREN!

One of my favourite parts of my club’s instructor course is where I pass around x-rays (from the internet, not my own patients) and ask students what they’re of. The reaction when they compare x-rays of an adult’s elbow to a child’s elbow is brilliant. “And that is why I don’t teach joint locks to children” I state. And they agree.

Childrens’ joints are not fully developed and they simply can’t take some of the stresses that would be placed on them in a joint lock. To the best of my knowledge there have been no studies undertaken on martial arts at specific life intervals following application of joint locks. Really you can’t do it due to ethics. How would you conduct the research, apply arm locks on a set of children daily for ten years and then x-ray their arms and compare them to a control group? Here we have to apply our knowledge and understanding of anatomy and development and consider the potential consequences balanced against benefit in training. To my mind, there’s no argument at all:

DO NOT PERFORM JOINT LOCKS ON CHILDREN!

There are other points in the book where I discuss specifics of children and their bodies including conditions such as Osgood-Schlatter's Disease.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Tau wrote:
I wrote about this in my book. To quote the main bit of text ... [snip]

This makes me wonder about kids Judo, or BJJ for that matter. The Judo dojo I trained at -I think- allowed armbars in kids newaza, though I am not positive, it may have just been pins. Does anyone know the rules for children's Judo or BJJ and joint locks?

If they're allowed that would be the place to look for data, I imagine.

I also imagine it highly depends on what kind of locks you're doing, how the tori is applying them, whether the receiver knows when to tap, etc. I mean, there is a world of difference between the kind of karate elbow-press technique and a waki gatame where you drop or sit out on someone, the injury liability is hugely different between techniques.

Joseph O'Neill
Joseph O'Neill's picture

Hi everyone, Thanks for the responses, some great food for thought. Ally, I like the idea of manipulating the bunkai so it targets a safer region with the same movement pattern - when junior students move up do the find chamging the technique to the adult version relatively easy? Tau - what's your book called? I might have to look it up! Wastelander/Zach - I had thought of looking at Judo, but I couldn't see in the BJAs rule anything about joint locks - However! They do have kyu grading videos on their site, I'll have to see if they have anything similar for mon grades. Thanks again everyone! Joe.

Tau
Tau's picture

Zach Zinn wrote:

This makes me wonder about kids Judo, or BJJ for that matter. The Judo dojo I trained at -I think- allowed armbars in kids newaza, though I am not positive, it may have just been pins. Does anyone know the rules for children's Judo or BJJ and joint locks?

If they're allowed that would be the place to look for data, I imagine.

I also imagine it highly depends on what kind of locks you're doing, how the tori is applying them, whether the receiver knows when to tap, etc. I mean, there is a world of difference between the kind of karate elbow-press technique and a waki gatame where you drop or sit out on someone, the injury liability is hugely different between techniques.

Yes.

I know several responsible schools that allow juniors of a set age to learn the "shape" of the joint lock and then in competition stop as soon at the arm is straight (for example) without there being any pull on the joint. 

If you take the arm bar as the classic example, there is a pull on the radial head. This appears around aged three but isn't fully formed until well into teenage years. Children's x-rays are fascinating.

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

Hi Joe, In the main the juniors who transition to senior and hence start studying the locks etc do have a period of adjustment. They automatically enter the drill they've always done. So some healthy mind set changing and training scarring erasure is required. Kindest Regards, Ally

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Joe,

Joseph O'Neill wrote:
My question therefore is: For those of you who teach these kinds of techniques, and also teach children, how do you get them practicing these techniques - and if they're in the grading requirements how do you assess them?

I don’t teach locks, chokes or strangles to kids. It’s something I have strong feelings about as I feel doing so it very dangerous and irresponsible. For the perspective of uke, the kids’ bodies simply are not ready for those methods. Long term damage or worse could result. For the perspective of tori, I don’t believe children are emotionally mature enough to practise those methods with the care they require. It’s a disaster waiting to happen.

Children and Adults should have different syllabuses. The adults learn real karate with all that that entails. The children get ready to learn real karate in a way that is safe, productive, fun and age appropriate. When they grow up, we can start building on the strong base they have (the core grappling and limb control skills) and add in joint locking and chokes/strangles.

In our dojo, the adults do practise such methods and they are part of the grading criteria. The children’s grading criteria is different – but is designed to flow into the adult syllabus as the student grows up – and does not include such methods.

Here in the UK, the British Judo Association does not teach locks and chokes/strangles to kids. They are also not part of junior tournaments. That’s definitely the way to go.

All the best,

Iain