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James Munn
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There are no inferior kata

The constant talk and references to “childrens kata’, ‘practice kata’ or ‘junior kata’ has to be put to rest, so to allow each and every karateka to pursue what they believe is best for them in their training journey.

 Kata to me is the following;

 What is a Kata? (From My Student Training Booklet)

A kata is commonly known as a form, a patternised sequence of movements involving karate techniques that simulate various attacks and defences.     The interpretation of the attacking and defensive techniques can be seen on various levels from very basic to complex.   The practical application of the techniques contained in a kata can be for defences against striking attacks all the way through to grappling defences.   The longer a student studies a kata, the more in depth the study of the practical applications becomes.   

 It is our contention that the study and practical application of kata is to find the combative self defence techniques hidden within the patternised sequence, thus providing the student with a self defence system that has been handed down throughout the ages.   Therefore, when a student studies a kata, it is not enough to be able to perform the sequence well, it is incumbent upon the student to delve deeper into the movements and determine the combative effectiveness of the movements and techniques contained in each kata.     As such the study of a single kata can take years to fully understand and appreciate, the practical applications can be numerous and can vary greatly depending on the interpretation of the individual studying and deciphering the meaning contained within the kata.

 In my martial arts journey I sought out the training systems and kata which compliment my physical attributes and as a result have concentrated on the following kata; Heian Shodan to Godan, Jion & Kanku Dai,  which have provided me with the ability to learn and apply practical self defence techniques to a variety of scenarios at different fighting distances.     These kata also allow me to grow and explore which I am still doing today after 40 years of martial arts training.   

The important part to remember in my view is that every kata has self defence applications and the interpretation of the self defence application is dependant on the individual karateka and his/her life experience. Not all kata will be suitable to every karateka, therefore each and everyone of us should decide what suits us and then do everything possible to explore what is in the kata and how it can suit our individual circumstance.

 In my study of kata I have found it useful to break the kata down and see the different applications held within each sequence, to me each kata has something to teach us and it is up to us to interpret what that is.     For me it had to be fast and effective applications as I was a Policeman for 16 years and Crowd Controller for a further 6 years, it had to work so as to avoid injury to myself or partner. The above kata have shown me applications that have worked in real life. The Heian series are a vital source of self defence applications to me, they may not be to someone else but that’s okay, if the shoe fits wear it.

In conclusion I would just like to say that in my opinion just because a kata has what is perceived to be very basic individual techniques does not make it an inferior kata compared to a more complicated kata.    It is the self defence applications derived from the kata that are important, not the complexity of the performed sequence.

Regards

James Munn

Gary Chamberlain
Gary Chamberlain's picture

I wonder where you found the time.  I trained - in my prime - about 20 hours a week and never saw kata as a priority, let alone an in depth study of them all looking for hidden applications.

So I can understand why some feel the Pinans (or whatever) are a priority.  Training time is limited so they want to get the most from the time invested.

Gary

JWT
JWT's picture

James Munn wrote:

 In conclusion I would just like to say that in my opinion just because a kata has what is perceived to be very basic individual techniques does not make it an inferior kata compared to a more complicated kata.    It is the self defence applications derived from the kata that are important, not the complexity of the performed sequence.

Absolutely.

KISS

clouviere
clouviere's picture

Mr. Chamberlain,

As I have often heard/read Iain say, it's really about your training goals and the priorities you placed.  You answered your own question, and I mean that with no disrespect.  But your priorities were not Kata.  So you didn't find the time to train them like that.  I would say that there are no "hidden applications".  That statement assumes that there is something to search for that is being kept secret.  If, as in my case, your training goal is to have a practical, civilian self defense skill set, you can easily do so in the 20 hours you speak of.  I have never had 20 hours a week to devote to kata in any way.  At best, even now with my passion and interest at an all time high, I have only about 5 hours of time available.  2 of those hours are regular class time and the other 3 are on my own with a partner.  Just that regular 3 hours is enough to really get something from kata.

In the last 18 months, with this limited time, I have grown leaps and bounds.  But it goes back to my goal.  My goals put kata in the forefront.  I believe, honestly, that they are a database (and being an IT professional I know how powerful databases can be) of learned knowledge.  Kata are a priority to me.  Kata are everything.  Kata are every where.  We see them all over the world in some shape or form.  I just happen to believe that the evolution of that methodology peeked in the 19th century on the island of Okinawa.  So, it isn't hard to get a lot out of training kata in a limited amount of time if you honestly believe in their value and put them as a priority in your training.  Not to over sell it, but that was my goal.  And the goal of martial artist all over the world.  Your goal may and may have been different, and that's fine to.

Chris

Gary Chamberlain
Gary Chamberlain's picture

James Munn wrote:

A kata is commonly known as a form, a patternised sequence of movements involving karate techniques that simulate various attacks and defences.     The interpretation of the attacking and defensive techniques can be seen on various levels from very basic to complex.   The practical application of the techniques contained in a kata can be for defences against striking attacks all the way through to grappling defences.   The longer a student studies a kata, the more in depth the study of the practical applications becomes.   

 It is our contention that the study and practical application of kata is to find the combative self defence techniques hidden within the patternised sequence, thus providing the student with a self defence system that has been handed down throughout the ages.   Therefore, when a student studies a kata, it is not enough to be able to perform the sequence well, it is incumbent upon the student to delve deeper into the movements and determine the combative effectiveness of the movements and techniques contained in each kata.     As such the study of a single kata can take years to fully understand and appreciate, the practical applications can be numerous and can vary greatly depending on the interpretation of the individual studying and deciphering the meaning contained within the kata.

Clouviere -

No offence taken

I was responding in part to the OP contentions of hidden movements in each kata that take years of study.  (Highlights are my own)  By contrast some of the RBSD practitioners I have trained with have gone exactly the opposite way.  A very condensed skillset that is drilled until instinctive and reliable in most situations.

Now I'm not saying one is 'better' than the other.  My needs, as you point out, were different.  I was a competitor.  I invested my time in a fairly narrow framework that although flawed from a pure self defence point of view built impact and controlled aggression.

So I'm not preaching and I wish everyone well in their search.  

Enjoy your training.

Gary

James Munn
James Munn's picture

Hi All,

I am sorry for the confusion regarding the sentence about hidden techniques, I don't mean to say there is some mystical secret hidden in kata, what I meant was that a commonly perceived technique maybe utilised as something else. i.e. Upper Block actually being a Forearm Strike to the neck etc. etc.

The interpretations of the movements within a kata are facinating and it is through forums like this that martial artists of various styles/systems can exchange ideas and evolve.     What a great period of history we are in right now, it wasn't all that long ago when exchanging ideas and questioning our training systems was unheard of.

All the best

 

Regards,

James

Gary Chamberlain
Gary Chamberlain's picture

No apology neccessary

I always see this whole breadth v depth debate as a bit like the gym I used to go to..

Upstairs, people fussed around like bees doing a few reps on every machine.  They had program cards written for them and if it said 10 reps with 5kg they did 10 reps with 5kg.  They trusted their improvement to the knowledge of others.  Others changed their programs every time a new magazine came out and were convinced they were getting all round fitness.

Meanwhile, downstairs in the basement, some very strong men (and women) kept it simple, stuck to the tried and tested methods and got strong.

We see this in MA.  Whole clubs taught the same way despite ages from 5 - 75 and weights from 20 - 120kg.

Or they 'do' a different kata every night depending on what whim takes them.

Others find what works for them, then work through the boredom and pain barrier until, like the professional, they can't do it wrong.

Gary

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Gary Chamberlain wrote:
Or they 'do' a different kata every night depending on what whim takes them.

Others find what works for them, then work through the boredom and pain barrier until, like the professional, they can't do it wrong.

I like the analogy above. One of my former instructors used to say that “Some people want to trained, and some people want to be entertained” (he was clear he was a trainer not an entertainer ;-) I think that fits with the demarcation you describe above.

All the best,

Iain

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi everyone,

Gary Chamberlain wrote:
Or they 'do' a different kata every night depending on what whim takes them.

A long time ago a certain Matsumura Sokon warned in a scroll (makimono) that there are three types of bugei and urged to pursue only the third type (Budo no Bugei). This sounds to me like the first one that is mentioned there (Gakushi no Bugei).

Gakushi no Bugei - Martial Arts of Scholars. As soon as they are bored they are looking for other things they can incorporate into their training instead of working through the boredom. That is why some people tend to put stuff like Qigong or Zen into their Karate or they start to practise Kata of other styles.

Regards Holger

Gary Chamberlain
Gary Chamberlain's picture

ky0han wrote:

Gakushi no Bugei - Martial Arts of Scholars. As soon as they are bored they are looking for other things they can incorporate into their training instead of working through the boredom. That is why some people tend to put stuff like Qigong or Zen into their Karate or they start to practise Kata of other styles.

Regards Holger

Like it!

The Fire Brigade had a great expression for people like that:  "They know the chemical formula for marmalade but can't get the top off the jar".

So I think we all agree that there ARE inferior kata.  Those that are not trained properly.

Gary

stevem
stevem's picture

Gary Chamberlain wrote:

So I think we all agree that there ARE inferior kata.  Those that are not trained properly.

I had a whole diatribe planned to post in this thread but the above sums it up quite succinctly smiley