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Greg
Greg's picture
Traditional fight stoppers and analysis

Hi all,

Bit of a strange request but one in which I have really struggled to find any solid research on. Mr Abernethy frequently talks of the three ways a conflict may be ended in his book bunkai-jutsu (if you haven't read it I must strongly recommend it, nothing short of pure excellence).

These three techniques are gouging the eye, siezing the throat and crushing the groin. These are three techniques almost impossible to train for and thus altercations need to be made. Now, are these fight enders or simply techniques which give time to escape? The human body is so durable that I thought that in extreme cases it can plough on unless unconscious. Two cases in point, the attacks to the eyes and the groin. Are gouging and crushing these two areas more designed to take away vision and/or produce intense pain thus allowing for the option to flee?

Secondly, in regards to siezing the trachea, how may this be trained? What I mean by this is it is trraight forward to train say a rear naked choke. The choke is applied and the partner taps when it is on. The user gains confidence in the technique as their training partner can testify that it was effective and the application of the technique is safely practiced with many repetitions. How may the same be done with the trachea grab in order to gain repetitive training and confidence that the technique works?  I though I had a solid understanding for how chok and strangles worked through training in judo. However, the two most common attacks in relation to a strangle are not allowed in judo practise, these being the two handed grab of the neck/throat area and the general one handed grabbing of the neck/throat area. Are these thuggish teqniques just as dangerous?

Any and all input would be greatly appreciated. Have been struggling with these aspects for a while and it has proven incredibly difficult to be able to build confidence with the technique. For example, if you were to become entangled with an opponent whom draws a weapon, would crushing the trachea really work as quickly and effectively as needed? Does it need to be held on like a more "traditional" choke or is it simple seized, crushed and released?

Again, thanks in advance for any and all help.

Greg

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Greg wrote:
if you haven't read it I must strongly recommend it, nothing short of pure excellence.

Why thank you! Sadly, the book is out of print at the moment and we’ve not got the funds available to reprint it. So if people have not read it yet, they may struggle to find a copy at the moment … Kindle version still going strong however! :-)

Greg wrote:
Now, are these fight enders or simply techniques which give time to escape?

Both. From a self-defence perspective the aim is to keep yourself safe from harm. Therefore in this context, the “fight” is ended when we escape, or the enemy permanently desists from trying to harm us. There are two reasons why the enemy will stop attacking: (a) they are not able to, or (b) they decide not to. Unconsciousness is the only sure-fire way to ensure (a) and bites and gouges can give the gap and space to impact effectively and ensure that. They won’t give unconscious on their own though. Bites and gouges can give us (b) – but as mentioned this is never guaranteed – as the pain and “brutality” can take away the will to continue. Remember the criminal is not wanting a “fight” they want wherever it is they want. Their finding out that there is a high cost to get it from you can make getting it from others seem like a better course of action.

Such techniques are easy to learn, easily to apply and are easier to retain under stress. That’s why they are so important and can be so effective.

Bites can be effectively applied by just about anyone, and will work on just about anyone; regardless of the physical stature of either party. I can build up my resistance to body shots through conditioning and “muscular armour”, but I can’t make my eyeball stronger. If someone gets a thumb in there and pushes in hard I am going to react. Damage to the eye and the resulting trauma could be a situation ender in itself; but if not, the necessitated reaction can produce good opportunities for effective impact and escape. Either way, the situation comes to a end. If a 7 stone woman has been seized by a 16 stone man, the chances of her “wrestling” herself free are not great. However, she can cause injury to the eyes, throat and testicles using little skill or strength. Who wants to keep hold of someone who is causing that amount of damage? They are therefore very important methods.

Greg wrote:
Secondly, in regards to siezing the trachea, how may this be trained? What I mean by this is it is straight forward to train say a rear naked choke. The choke is applied and the partner taps when it is on. The user gains confidence in the technique as their training partner can testify that it was effective and the application of the technique is safely practiced with many repetitions. How may the same be done with the trachea grab in order to gain repetitive training and confidence that the technique works?

We train it in the same way we train other techniques that cause immediate damage i.e. strikes, etc. Obviously this one can’t be trained “full contact” in any circumstances; but for all but the young and healthy pro-fighter, full contact is not generally advisable in any case. And even then, most pro-fighters don’t train full contact (they fight it, but don’t train it) in order to reduce the risk of injury in training (you only get paid when you fight). As professional boxing trainer Brendan Ingle once said in Boxing Magazine, “The only time people should be fighting full contact is when they’re getting paid lots of money for it”.

With striking, we spar with control, padding etc. And to ensure we can really hit hard, we hit pads and bags etc. We do the same to practise throat grabs etc. In sparring we practise grabbing the neck (not the trachea, but the whole neck) so we know we have the skills to get the hand in place against live resistance (and to defend against the same thing). To ensure we can actually squeeze with force in the right location, we use suitable equipment: BOB dummies are perfect for this.

Safety in training means this is the best way to do it, as the only alternative is to omit these simple and highly effective techniques entirely. And if these methods are omitted entirely we become blind to the way we can use them and, just as importantly, how they can be used on us.

My old podcast on Kata Based Sparring looks at this (as does the Kata Based Sparring DVD / Download):

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/kata-based-sparring-revisited-structure

Greg wrote:
I though I had a solid understanding for how choke and strangles worked through training in judo. However, the two most common attacks in relation to a strangle are not allowed in judo practise, these being the two handed grab of the neck/throat area and the general one handed grabbing of the neck/throat area. Are these thuggish techniques just as dangerous?

These techniques are not permitted in judo for good reason: they are dangerous and much easier to apply. Seizing the throat is much easier to learn and apply than a rear naked strangle (people should lean both though!). I sometimes find many martial artists have an inherent dislike of thing that are a lot more “martial” than “art”. That’s why such methods are seen as the domain of thugs. However, it will be thugs we will be protecting ourselves from: they are not after a highly skilled exchange and will instead prefer quick and simple brutality to get what they want. We also need to keep in mind that – unlike a fight with a fellow practitioner – self-protection is an environment that punishes complexity and rewards simplicity. Peter Consterdine wrote a very good article on this vital distinction:

http://worldcombatassociation.com/?page_id=70

Greg wrote:
For example, if you were to become entangled with an opponent whom draws a weapon, would crushing the trachea really work as quickly and effectively as needed? Does it need to be held on like a more "traditional" choke or is it simple seized, crushed and released?

There always need to be an appreciation that tactic should dictate technique, and therefore that technique can never be divorced from tactic. In this example (a weapon is involved), the tactics would dictate that such a technique should not be used as described. Having one hand on the throat would mean the enemy would, in all probability, be able to stab repeatedly. However, if, for an example for how the technique could be employed in a similar scenario, you had got offline and had the enemy’s weapon arm controlled (such that they could not pass the weapon to the other hand), you could seize the throat with the other arm to cause the enemy to unbalance such that their supporting leg could be reaped and they could be taken over. You could then kick and run. The bottom line though is the throat grab – just like every other technique – should be applied in accordance with the tactics that the situation requires.

As an aside, here is an old podcast on my thoughts around “weapon defence” generally:

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/weapon-defence

So while these techniques can be simple to apply, it does not follow that they are always the right thing to do. To be truly effective we need not only the “what” (i.e. the technique), but also the “when” (i.e. the right tactics).

I hope that helps a little.

All the best,

Iain

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Greg,

if I remember correct those three were entry techniques. You need the opponent to grab the wrist go with one of them. Fight enders are they only if you succeed with them and if you have the guts to maim the opponent causing permanent damange.

It is an important principle to use pain to manipulate the opponent the way you need. The pain threshold is rather different with different people so it is sometimes hard to figure out how many pain you are causing when applying locks, seizing muscles and skin and so on. Those three areas are vital to everyone thus making a good entry.

It is hard to train the actual throat seize. You can gently apply it and the partner grabs/tabs the hand followed by and immediate release just to make sure it would work. Can't do that full force of course. Then you can only train your grip strenght and speed. As for the testicles you can grip the inner thigh that hurts a lot too. Eye gouges can be trained by pressing the thumb against the temple area causes pain too but no permanent eye damage.

Regards Holger

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

ky0han wrote:
It is hard to train the actual throat seize. You can gently apply it and the partner grabs/tabs the hand followed by and immediate release just to make sure it would work. Can't do that full force of course. Then you can only train your grip strenght and speed. As for the testicles you can grip the inner thigh that hurts a lot too. Eye gouges can be trained by pressing the thumb against the temple area causes pain too but no permanent eye damage.

That’s it exactly. We often use the belt knot as the substitute for the testicles (i.e. if your partner gets a strong grip on the belt knot then that’s a very bad thing!) and we also use the inside of the trouser leg too. We tend to use just above the eyebrows as the substitute for eye gouges in sparring (it’s close but safe) if the thumb is placed there then it needs to be dealt with as if an actual eye gouge is in place i.e. it can be ignored.

As with all immediately damaging techniques, we only have the options of substitution or omission. Such substitutions are the way to go in this instance I feel.

All the best,

Iain

Black Tiger
Black Tiger's picture

DENT in a thread on K4L - Link available on request

The quote he quoted I think totally levels the "playing field" on this one

"An excerpt for On Combat. http://www.killology.com/on_combat_ch2.htm. "In combat you do not rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training.” - Anon Marine."

Greg
Greg's picture
 

Thank you all so much for the input, I grealty appreciate your time and fantastic coments. 

Totally see the application of the right technique for the right circumstance, I think the error I had made was that siezing the trachea was an automatic "game over" instead of being a more brutal choke that needed to be held on to be effective. I think this is partly because I misunderstood a section in Beyond Bunkai (elerment nine,) where tekki is used to protect against the windpipe being siezed (if you haven't seen Beyond Bunaki, I cannot recomend it enough as I feel the elements and methods shown in this video completely changed my perspective on training for the better).

This was also an aspect that I experimented with a few months back. This was that chokes and strangles i have found to be great techniques. However, if a strangle is applied and an opponent draws a knife it can make for a very different problem. This is not as bad when the knife is controlled as described above but for chakes which tie up both hands from the front, say a guillotene choke, it can be quite dangerous. The way we trained this was to have the attacker put in a guillotene and see if they were able to draw and stab in a resonble time before the choke took its full effect. We practiced the same drill but with the knife drawn and it almost always led to the attacker being stabed mutiple times very quickly. It just goes to show as stated above that the right technique needs to be applied in the right circumstance. 

The more basic throat grabs have been of great interest also. I have always thought that such techniques relied on superior strength (and hand size) to be of any true effect. However, through really pushing training as much as safely possibly it was scary how simply grabbing the neck (not solely the trachea) with one or both hands could be so effective and bring on a choke. I think part of it comes through the ethos of always being shown what was considered the "proper" way in so many clubs. This belief led to thinking that any other way was wrong and that it was not possible to really be choked by a violent movement with no training behind it. However, through training with a little more vigor and being prvivalage to the generous and excellent wisdom shared on this forum it has greatly aided in my approach to my training.

Agian, thank you so much for the input, os greatly appreciated.

Greg 

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Greg,

I just remembered this in regards to fight stoppers :o).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wsl-N3xeY4

Regards Holger

Greg
Greg's picture
 

Thanks again for all the great advice and various links provided.

These tips really helped appreciate the bunkai of application more than before and have been intergrated into training to great effect. By placing the thumb on the eyebrow to simulate an eyegouge for example really opened up the training in relation to grappling and helped in incorperating such techniques into live training as safely and realiticly as possible without compramising on safety.

I have been lucky enough to use a BOB as suggested  to train siezing the trachea and it was an excellent suggestion which really allowds for the techniue to be trained both violently, in terms of its application, and safely too. 

One final element that I was a little unsure of was the effect of this technique. Should it be applied unarmed is the objective to hold it until the aggressor has ceased their attack (as a regular choke would be used) and is this the only was that it is effective?

Thanks again for aiding with my understanding of integrating such great training methods and making the very most of my bunkai analysis and application.

Is greatly appreciated.