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Paul_D
Paul_D's picture
Would Karate had been better off it never made its way to Japan?

We are all well aware of the changes that were made to Karate once it came to Japan, changes which were on the whole detrimental to the art.

Whilst the spread of karate across Japan ultimately lead to it spreading all over the world, it was the children’s version of karate that was spread, rather than the adult version designed for dealing with civilian violence.

So on the one hand we have the Japanese to thank for popularising Karate, but they did so at a cost.

My question therefore is, would Karate had been better off it had never made its way to Japan?  Ok, so it would not have spread, but it could easily be argued that it with the explosion of interest in Martial Arts that occurred in the 1970’s, karate would eventually have been discovered and spread anyway., and what would have spread would have been the practical civilian self defence version.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I think it really only would have delayed the inevitable. The process of converting Okinawan karate into a Japanese budo-type style began with the Meiji Restoration through the forced importation of Japanese culture to the Ryukyu islands. It was certainly helped along by being introduced on mainland Japan, but even on Okinawa, many instructors chose to modify their teachings for a variety of reasons. Especially after World War 2, when Allied forces established a huge foothold on Okinawa, many karateka chose to make money by teaching foreign soldiers, and they largely taught them watered down, budo-type karate. Mainland Japan definitely helped karate explode in popularity, but I think the Japanification of karate would have occurred even if it had stayed on Okinawa. It wouldn't have happened as quickly, and maybe fewer instructors would have done it, but it still would have happened.

Of course, this is all just my own conjecture.

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Noah,

The process of converting Okinawan karate into a Japanese budo-type style began with the Meiji Restoration through the forced importation of Japanese culture to the Ryukyu islands.

Okinawan fighting traditions were influenced by Japanese Budo since the Satsuma invasion in 1609. Here the Shimazu family style of Jigen Ryu was introduced to Okinawa and with it the idea of Budo spread amongst the local masters.

Back to the original question. The change of Karate started in the late 1890s when Itosu and three of his students formed Karate into a type of physical exercise in order to replace the physical education program that was formed based on prussian gymnastic standards.

When Funakoshi went to Japan for good in 1922 that programm was in place for two decades already. So the only thing that happened when Karate came to Japan was that it attracted more people and then started spreading all over the world.

And I agree with Noah that even if it had not been brought to Japan, Karate had found its ways to spread because after WW2 american GIs learned some Karate anyway and took it home to the US.

Regards Holger

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

ky0han wrote:

Okinawan fighting traditions were influenced by Japanese Budo since the Satsuma invasion in 1609. Here the Shimazu family style of Jigen Ryu was introduced to Okinawa and with it the idea of Budo spread amongst the local masters.

Yes, I should have worded my statement a bit more accurately. I was talking about the push of modernization and the emphasis on moving away from practicality and toward physical/mental challenge and personal development, along the lines of kenjutsu becoming kendo and jujutsu becoming judo. I would argue that, while the Japanese idea of budo was certainly brought over in 1609 (if not earlier), the Japanese arts that carried it were practical fighting arts, and not the modernized budo sports I was referring to. Sorry for the confusion!

css1971
css1971's picture

Paul_D wrote:

but it could easily be argued that it with the explosion of interest in Martial Arts that occurred in the 1970’s, karate would eventually have been discovered and spread anyway., and what would have spread would have been the practical civilian self defence version.

Seems unlikely to me. More likely that Chinese styles and/or Judo/ju-jutsu would have dominated instead and karate would simply have become a niche oddity.

Looking at the quality of kung-fu that has been spread, it's in an even poorer state than karate, and for the same reasons. We'd be talking about the practical applications of Shaolin forms or Praying Mantis forms instead of Passai or Naihanchi.

Michael Rust
Michael Rust's picture

It's quite possible we wouldn't be practising today if Karate never had made it to Japan. Not a for sure thing, but the Japenese although simplified Karate did make it popular and are essentially responsible for spreading it around the world. I'm sure it would have still spread it just may not have become as popular and by proxy less people may have been practising the art. However, I guess we will never really know.

Mike

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

My instinct is that if karate had never made it to Japan it would have been a very obscure martial art that tried to “modernise” but was never able to synchronise with the zeitgeist of the time. There would have been no books from the likes of Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu, etc – because there would have been no market to write the books for – and hence there would be no information on karate for us to look back on. It would not be a widely practised art and we’d know almost nothing about it.

There’s a good chance we’d all be Judoka looking back to Tenjin Shinyo-ryu & Kito-ryu in order to add in what was taken out and ‘forgotten’ during the formation of modern Judo :-)

All the best,

Iain

Steve Gombosi
Steve Gombosi's picture

Had Karate not been introduced to Japan, I rather doubt if it would exist at all today. I think it would have dwindled in poularity, even on Okinawa throughout the prewar years and probably been extinguished entirely after the Battle of Okinawa and the ensuing Occupation. That doesn't mean I think modern, sportified karate is  good thing (in general, I don't). It does mean, however, that the introduction of the art to Japan (and its acceptance by the Butokukai) insured that there was a critical mass of practitioners which allowed it to be continue to exist.  

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Steve Gombosi wrote:
Had Karate not been introduced to Japan, I rather doubt if it would exist at all today … That doesn't mean I think modern, sportified karate is  good thing (in general, I don't).

I agree. The irony is that had the changes not been introduced then there would have been no karate, of any kind. So those of us who are returning to a more holistic and combative form of karate have to acknowledge that there would be no karate for us to return to had it not been “declawed”. So, ultimately, the changes instituted whereof benefit to all of karate.

Conversely, today we have return to something more combative if karate is to have a future because a desire for function is once again at the forefront.

All the best,

Iain

Ian H
Ian H's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
There’s a good chance we’d all be Judoka looking back to Tenjin Shinyo-ryu & Kito-ryu in order to add in what was taken out and ‘forgotten’ during the formation of modern Judo :-)

There's a bit more to this comment than some people might think.  

It seems that with all martial arts, "popular" and "watered down" seem to go hand in hand.  (Whether 'a causes b' or 'b causes a' or 'c causes a and b" or it's just coincidence, is food for a lengthy discussion.)  The challenge for the future is to see if, and to what extent, that connection can be broken.

Steve Gombosi
Steve Gombosi's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
The irony is that had the changes not been introduced then there would have been no karate, of any kind.

Whatever one might think of modern Shotokan and its many offshoots, we all owe a profound debt to Funakoshi for insuring the preservation of the art.