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Joshua Shrum
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9 Year Old Black Belt?

http://globalnews.ca/news/2479093/9-year-old-karate-kid-featured-in-new-sia-video-kicking-and-punching-her-way-to-global-fandom/

Above is a video of a 9 year old girl that is making great strides in the world of martial arts. I want to note that she is accomplishing things that most adults have not even done. She is in a pop-culture music video, won numerous world championship titles, and is on her way to competing in the Olympics (she's hoping) if Karate becomes an Olympoic sport.

I am not questioning her talent, nor her achievements.

But...

How do we feel about a 9 year old girl wearing a black belt? I understand it is solely a belt and does not warrant meaning without understanding... But thats is right there. Do you feel she has earned the right to wear a black with meaning/significance it holds in todays society?

What makes someone worthy to wear smething giving them rank/title?

When you wear a shodan, that shows you have an understanding of what?

We see this all the time in the tournament setting. Does this happen at your school? How do you guys eel about this, or what age is acceptable?

Give your opinion and don't hold back!

Quick2Kick
Quick2Kick's picture

Seek skill and not recognition. If someone is wearing a belt you don't think they deserve is that not your ego being threatened? Somehow you won't get the admiration you feel you are warranted because that perons lack of skill diminishes the rank for everyone else? 

First they are too young....then they are not flexible enough...next they are too weak or old..... They haven't trained long enough. 

I'll stand in the back and wear a pink belt as long as you let me train :) 

Chikara Andrew
Chikara Andrew's picture

I think alot depends on wether you are looking from the outside in, or the inside out.

The modern day public perception of a Black Belt is something very different to what it originated as in Kano's Judo, and as was adopted by Karate. You ask people outside of the martial arts what they consider a black belt to represent and by and large they consider it to represent mastery of the martial art. Originally it represented proficiency, and by and large in reality it still does.

I read Four Shades of Black by Gavin Mulholland in the run up to or shortly after taking my Shodan and it was a bit of an eye opener for me. He discusses very openly what it means to him to be a black belt and the continuing journey beyond Shodan.

I feel that as a martial artist I have developed exponentially from where I was at Shodan, and I hope to continue to do so. I now look at some of the 1st Dan's in my club and see that they still have a long way to go, but they are a cut above the kyu grades and that is what is important. It is a stepping stone, but at the end of the day 1st Dan is only one grade above 1st Kyu.

As for children well, it come down to what you want to get out of your martial art. I teach at a couple of clubs that are very much family clubs, kids do it for health, enjoyment, skill, competition, and all of these things are fine, as long as you and they understand what you are training for. 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

All dan grades are just internal markers within a given group. There is no universality across groups.

So I’m OK with it so long as there is not the attempt (by the awarding group or outside observers) to equate the combative skills of a fully grown adult with that of a young girl.

I think the best solution is the use of “junior dan grades” which inherently acknowledge that children and adults are effective studying different arts and therefore the nature of the skill being acknowledged is different.

“I got top marks in the spelling test” and “I got a first in my degree” are both achievements worthy of some recognition, but they are different in nature and magnitude and that needs to be acknowledged.  

Wearing a black belt is fine, but hopefully the certificate will have the words “junior” or equivalent somewhere on it.

All the best,

Iain

Joshua Shrum
Joshua Shrum's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote: 

All dan grades are just internal markers within a given group. There is no universality across groups.

So I’m OK with it so long as there is not the attempt (by the awarding group or outside observers) to equate the combative skills of a fully grown adult with that of a young girl.

I think you are right. I like to compare this to a teenager that has already completed college because of a higher understanding and knowledge base. Though they may not be in their 30's or 40's, yet already have a Masters Degree is astounding, but real none-the-less. But in education, everything is compairable to each other, where as martial arts is different for every style or school.

Quick2Kick wrote: Seek skill and not recognition. If someone is wearing a belt you don't think they deserve is that not your ego being threatened? Somehow you won't get the admiration you feel you are warranted because that perons lack of skill diminishes the rank for everyone else? 

I think that we often see the black belt as a 'mystical' belt that means some super status. I think what you put sums it up, "seek skill and not recognition" is ultimately what it boils down to. Why are you a black belt? It's because you earned that rank through hard work and personal achievement. 

When I look at students that just recieved their shodan, I think of back to when I was at that point. Amazing to think I also was once there! It does not mean that they are less worthy of the belt, or not deserving. That girl has made some huge strides, and I think she earned it.

Was curious on how todays society viewed her wearing a black belt. 

Iain Abernethy wrote: Wearing a black belt is fine, but hopefully the certificate will have the words “junior” or equivalent somewhere on it.

I personally (just personal feelings/beliefs) would hope that it would say something of the matter. But if it didn't I wouldnt hold it against her... You see her kata? She may kick me in the shin!

Quick2Kick wrote: I'll stand in the back and wear a pink belt as long as you let me train :) 

I am with you for sure. Went to a seminar a few years ago that had everyone wear normal clothes. Their main reason was to show limitations on movement with the clothing you wear everyday, but they mentioned that rank means nothing on the street. lol

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Personally I don't have a problem with this. 

As Iain says they are only internal markers anyway.  That said it is important that standards are maintained,  and that depth is valued.

My juniors train on a different night to the adults,  and from day one they study only Naihanchi. They practice 2 person exercises to develop specific skills, and applications for Naihanchi which are similar to the adults class, only with some of the most dangerous elements removed, or altered. 

Pad work also obviously plays a significant role in their training.  Recently a new student held a pad for one of my 1st kyu juniors (a couple of years younger than the pad holder). His eyes nearly popped out of his head when he experienced the impact of the Shotai Uchi.

I definitely agree with the term "junior Shodan", but when my students who began with me aged 5 train regularly,  make fantastic strides forward in all the elements I teach, train and have more of an idea about the depth of Naihanchi than many an adult  black belt and earn the right to attempt junior Shodan by age 10 then I think they deserve their rank.

Incidentally,  I've seen plenty of adult black belts whose "combative skills" left a lot to be desired.  Age is not always the issue, although I stress to my juniors that their karate would not be effective against an adult, relatively speaking my juniors ability to apply will be to a very acceptable level amongst their own peer groups.

Marc
Marc's picture

My take on the question of young black belts would be this:

Any grading, kyu as well as dan grades, is usually achieved through a grading exam within the group or association the karateka belongs to. Those exams follow the requirements and standards of that particular group. So if somebody is examined for a certain grade and they show that they're up to the standards, then they've earned that grade. Therefore it is a question of standards rather than age. If a nine year old girl meets the standards for black belt within her group, then that's great. Of course, a certain age may well be a requirement if the group thinks it's necessary.

I've written a short article on my take on belt colors. It's on the idea of wearing colours rather than on the idea of gradings as such. In short I'm saying that...

Belt colours make sense in larger groups (clubs, seminars, associations). They are useful to instructors when structuring training, and they can help motivate students. Furthermore, they do have an effect on the behaviour of the person wearing it. Beginners can easily recognise senior students who possibly can answer questions the beginner might have. Belt colours reflect the appreciation of commitment within the social context - be it technical skill or recognised work within an association. Just like other status symbols, belt colours can induce the formation of small groups or even jealousy. It is the duty of the more experienced karatekas to uphold the positive meaning of belt colours and by their responsible demeanour prevent negative effects.

Take care everybody, Marc  

manusg34
manusg34's picture

I have never been in favor of kids getting a Black Belt. That is because it can give a kid false confidence or an unreal exspectation of his or her ability to defend themselve against an adult. With my kids I use "Scrolls of Knowledge" first I start them with the Heian Scroll. They start as a white and go to brown (6 kyu Levels) then they graduate and move on to Tekki Scroll. Then start over with a white and black striped belt and go to brown again. So instead of a Black Belt I give them a nice hanging scroll they seem to love it. I think that is because of Kung Fu Panda's Dragon Scroll !! Just my way of doing things and I find it helps keep the kids a little humble and hopefully safer so they don't bite off more than they can handle.

Manus from Jersey

Marc
Marc's picture

manusg34 wrote:

With my kids I use "Scrolls of Knowledge" first I start them with the Heian Scroll. They start as a white and go to brown (6 kyu Levels) then they graduate and move on to Tekki Scroll. Then start over with a white and black striped belt and go to brown again. So instead of a Black Belt I give them a nice hanging scroll they seem to love it.

Manus,

that sounds like a pretty nice idea. "Scrolls of Knowledge" has something mystical about it. I can see how the kids would like it.

How does the transition to the adult gradings work within your system?

Is your school part of a larger group or association? If so, how does your idea fit in with the official grading system?

manusg34
manusg34's picture

Marc,

No I am independant butI  love what the WCA and the practical karate training that is going on over in England and rest of Europe. I am going to join the WCA. When the kids get older they have to learn the parts of the kata bunkai I leave out for their safety. If the have learned at least there first two scrolls and and go back and learn all the bunkai I will promote them to 1st dan.

Manus

Marc
Marc's picture

Thanks for explaining your system a little more, Manus. At what age do you allow your kids to be grown ups, learn the more dangerous bunkai and receive a black belt (if they meet your standards)?  

Marc
Marc's picture

In the grading regulations of the German Karate Association (DKV, Deutscher Karate-Verband) age restrictions for Dan grades apply as follows:

  • Junior Dan, 12 years old, valid until 16 years old, then the exam for 1. Dan has to be taken
  • 1. Dan, 16 years old, 1 year since last grading
  • 2. Dan, 18 years old, 2 years since last grading
  • 3. Dan, 3 years since last grading (so min 21 years old)
  • 4. Dan, 4 years since last grading (so min 25 years old)
  • 5. Dan, 5 years since last grading (so min 30 years old)
  • 6. Dan, 45 years old (so up to 10 years since last grading)
  • 7. Dan, 50 years old (so up to 5 years since last grading)
  • 8. Dan, 60 years old (so up to 10 years since last grading)

Side note: The DKV represents over 2500 clubs with over 150,000 members.

Are there any age regulations and preparation intervals defined in your groups or associations?  

manusg34
manusg34's picture

Marc.

To me it depends on the child, if he has been training with me and has shown to be mature and never had any problems outside or on the mats. Maybe I would at 16/17. The youngest aged BB was 18 so far. But like I said it depends on the kid. But what I teach them they know more than enough to protect themselves, I just do not teach neck cranks and other dangerous techniques like that.But throws,locks, sweeps elbows and all that other fun stuff is in there.LOL We do not point fight or do 1 -steps. WE do what I call "School Yard Drills" attacks from headlocks ,bearhugs,1 and 2 hand pushing, wild puching and tackles so I as the kids go though the ranks I know they are ok.

talk to you soon

Manus

Ian H
Ian H's picture

Is this a question about her maturity level, or about her petite size and lack of brute strength with which to apply her techniques?  She wouldn't stand a chance in a "real fight" against Henry "Hammering Hank" Slomanski in his prime, obviously, but then again the same could be said for a lot of other black belted adults about whom we have no "they shouldn't be shodan" qualms.  To me, the physical aspect of the black belt is more about "how well can you use what you've got?" rather than "can you defeat a large, athletic, adult male attacker?"

Perhaps what gnaws at us about this is not so much the physical aspect, but the general belief that there is a "knowledge and wisdom" component that comes with the black belt (or at least ought to).  She might be able to "do" those kata really well at tournaments but ... does she understand the underlying principles well enough, or is she just really good at mimicking and remembering what her sensei taught her?  

That said ...

... let's pause and reflect for a moment.  

Compared to kids her age, she is freaking phenomenal.  Who wouldn't want a student like that?   Good for her!

Joshua Shrum
Joshua Shrum's picture

Ian H. said: To me, the physical aspect of the black belt is more about "how well can you use what you've got?" rather than "can you defeat a large, athletic, adult male attacker?"

I think thats a good way to think of it. I agree with idea that we have to think of her ability and what her ability pertains to. Does she fully understand kata and how it relates to self defense? Probably not... But I don't always understand it either... But does she know how to perform the kata in a manner that will get good scores in a tournament? Yes! She kills it!

Marc, thanks for the breakdown of the length/age needed for each belt rank. Very informational!

Also, thanks to everyone that contributed to this forum. I know the question was very open ended, and can be understood in a variety of ways.. I am working on an article over the "meaning" to be a black belt and how it can be understood in different ways/styles. This was all very helpful!

Joshua

Tau
Tau's picture

Short answer:

My students start as low as six years old. If they've been training ardently for six years (minimum) and have all the requisit skills and standards then why shouldn't they grade? I do indeed do junior black belts.

But

They're different from adult black belts. The syllabus has a different focus. The maturity is different. So my junior dan grades know that they're junior dan grades. There's a white stripe through their belt. They must affirm their adult grades via (less formal) gradings.

Assuming Shodan at aged 12 or 13, they could get a junior Nidan. I have one student aiming for that for next summer. At 16 they're adult students. I won't take away their black belts, but they can't progress at the junior level

Richard L
Richard L's picture

Personally, I think it not only depends on the child, but also the school they received it from.

Alot is mentioned in various blogs and the media about 'dubious' karate (and other martial art) schools, where black belts seem to be handed out without much effort involved on either side.

However, my own son was awarded his black belt aged 11, after 7 years of training with a minimum of 2-3 times a week, he has, since 1st kyu taught in classes to help lower grades, as is expected of all 1st kyu's and now helps out twice a week teaching with myself and his 3rd Dan Sensei.

I think that if the child puts in the effort, makes a committment and is determined enough to acheive their black belt, that honour should not be held back by age, otherwise what would be the point of teaching children karate if we don't think they are deserving of the rank purely based on age. Just because an adult earns a black belt, that doesn't make them any more deserving of the rank, does it?

There is the question "How long does it take the average person to earn a black belt?" - Answer "The average person does not earn a black belt", as long and the child has the understanding that the black belt is the start of their journey into martial arts and not the end, they should be able to wear a black belt with pride.

genkaimade
genkaimade's picture

Just thought I would throw a slightly different perspective into this.

I have been training at a BJJ club for the last few months, and they do the ranking thing very, very differently. Firstly, there is no such thing as a grading "event" as such - an instructor will give a new belt (white-->blue-->purple-->brown-->black) to someone when they have decided the person receiving is ready for it, having watched them in classes (classes consisting of nothing but partner drills and full power live sparring 50:50) for months or years. Being "upgraded", pretty much means that unless there is a big weight disadvantage, you should never lose to someone that has a lower rank than you. Rank is hence not a reward for comittment, it is not an arbitrary marker of how many months/years people have casually been turning up for, it is not a marketing catch to try and motivate people to keep training. By contrast, rank very much correlates with proficiency within BJJ schools. The skill gap between ranks is tremendous (genuinely unbelievably so, a blue belt in practice is like a grappling god set against a white belt), and demonstrated every time someone steps on the mats. Not including some really, really exceptional exceptions (BJ Penn for example), it normally takes people ~10 years to get a black belt, training about three times a week as a minimum, sparring live every single time. As far as kids go, they use different belt colours (still the same training etc. structure though); when they get to ~16 if I am not mistaken, their instructor switches them over to the adult grade they think their skills match with. However a kid that has earned the highest kid's grade, does not automatically get a black belt when they turn 16 just because they were good as kids; they are given the belt that corresponds with their ability on the mat.

Obviously we could never do things in quite the same way in karate pinning everything against live stuff, that amount of real live full impact/bunkai/self defence etc. training or kudo matches or whatever "full contact against opponents" metric we might decide on, would just leave everyone maimed; but I figured it might give you all something interesting to think about in any case :)

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

genkaimade wrote:
As far as kids go, they use different belt colours (still the same training etc. structure though); when they get to ~16 if I am not mistaken, their instructor switches them over to the adult grade they think their skills match with. However a kid that has earned the highest kid's grade, does not automatically get a black belt when they turn 16 just because they were good as kids; they are given the belt that corresponds with their ability on the mat

I’ve always really liked the model. It makes perfect sense to me to have a separate children’s system that feeds in to the adult system. I know a few karate clubs that do a similar thing i.e. a junior black belt will become an adult 4th kyu or something similar.

Children will either get older or quit. If they quit then there is no issue. If they get older there needs to be a mechanism for moving them over to adult training and ranking.

All the best,

Iain

Tau
Tau's picture

genkaimade wrote:
Just thought I would throw a slightly different perspective into this. I have been training at a BJJ club for the last few months,

I took up BJJ two years ago due to the desire for a challenge (it's certainly that) and wanting to address a hole in my game (groundwork.) My training is regrettably sporadic due to shift work and other Martial Arts committments. Having retired from Kickboxing I'm now looking to my BJJ competition later this year.

genkaimade wrote:
Firstly, there is no such thing as a grading "event" as such - an instructor will give a new belt (white-->blue-->purple-->brown-->black) to someone when they have decided the person receiving is ready for it, having watched them in classes (classes consisting of nothing but partner drills and full power live sparring 50:50) for months or years.

There is increasing disparity in the BJJ world. Some clubs have a formal published syllabus and conduct gradings to that syllabus. Most don't. I train under Checkmat. They have an unpublished "syllabus" in terms of an expected repertoire for each grade, although they seem to be principle-lead.

genkaimade wrote:
Being "upgraded", pretty much means that unless there is a big weight disadvantage, you should never lose to someone that has a lower rank than you.

As a white belt, I've tapped out blue belts. Rarely, I concede. I've not yet tapped a purple. A recent discussion I have with my brown belt instructor went to the tune of me saying when I'm rolling with him, if I see an opening I don't take it because I believe it's a trap. Brown belts can be damned good at baiting. He said take it as anyone can make a mistake on any given day. No-one's invulnerable.

genkaimade wrote:
The skill gap between ranks is tremendous (genuinely unbelievably so, a blue belt in practice is like a grappling god set against a white belt), and demonstrated every time someone steps on the mats.

Yup. And it's quite demoralising sometimes. I've never felt like quitting so much as I have at times in BJJ. But you soldier on through and when you pull off something it's a great feeling.

genkaimade wrote:
As far as kids go, they use different belt colours (still the same training etc. structure though);

Now this is the interesting part as BJJ childrens and masters grades seem to have undergone a radical overhaul in the past few years. The BJJ ranks would appear simpler than most other systems but it seems to have gone the other way. Consider the IBJJF ranking structure and their age limits. Plus also their use of the grey belt for very young students. It's become quite complex.

http://ibjjf.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/IBJJF-Graduation-System-Poster.pdf

Renzo and Rener Gracie are doing great things in terms of making BJJ accessible and applied to children. The gradings are part of this

Ian H
Ian H's picture

genkaimade wrote:
J.... an instructor will give a new belt ... to someone when they have decided the person receiving is ready for it, .... Being "upgraded", pretty much means that unless there is a big weight disadvantage, you should never lose to someone that has a lower rank than you.

Thanks for sharing.  

You explained how they account for "childrens' grades/belts", but what do they do for guys who get old?  A guy who gets his black belt at 30 can no doubt dominate the brown belt students, but ... when he's 50 ... 60 ... he may have trained consistently for decades but it's just a fact of life that he's no longer the same guy he was physically at 30, so by then the young brown belts could beat him on a regular basis.  How is that dealt with?

Mulberry4000
Mulberry4000's picture

i am a blue belt (2nd kyu) in judo from  30 years ago, went back to judo in 2012 club recognised my grade but i felt it was unwise so went back to ungraded in a another club. I am still ungrade in BJA judo. that is nearly 7 months later. I cannot take grades as bja rules state i have to have a full licence, i dot not have one i.e recreational one. So this means i will never get a full licence  and never grade as i cannot afford it. I go to the judo club because i enjoy judo. I go to my karate club because i enjoy karate and the commpany there. I love katas and their possiblities etc. I can see allot of judo in them. I am a  5th kyu in karate after 21/2 years of  training. last time i grade was  6 months ago. I hate grading, my it never happen again. The point is i do not for the love it fo the art/sport not for the love of the belt. 

Also i am on medication which slows me down due to depression, I  never tell the instuctors this as it can causes problems.   So they may think i am telling fibbs about my past judo and karate experience etc.  Best to keep quite.

robert todd sweeney
robert todd sweeney's picture

I just recently brought this up at a Tsuruoka Karate Clinic on ages for blackbelt testing. The answer was not simple and very complicated. Short Answer; it depends. Long answer; combination of many things skill, attitude , recomendations from Sensei's, and knowledge of the art. every organization has their own set of rules and guidelines most have adopted a junior blackbelt grade and then latter on they retest at the adult level. Some styles say 17 others have no age limit. When testing, age does come into play; a 65 year old who test for shodan will not be expected to perform at the same level as a 17 year old or a 9 year old. But ultimately the decision rests with the head of the organization that the student belongs with. Now regarding Karate as an event for the Olympics;if and when Karate does become an event in the Olympics the IOC will be relying on World Karate Federation for guidance (WKF) all competitors regardless will have to comply or not be able to compete.

Now in my opinion, I will not hold back anyone that meets my pretesting for blackbelt. I am only a Sandan and have been practicing karate since 1984. I do not grade my students for Shodan, the head of my organization does, the final testing is on my recommedation to Tsuruoka Sensei and a Board of Senior 8 th dan black belts who have input too.

 'A blackbelt is just a white belt who is really good at there art" Tsurouka Sensei