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Chris Hansen
Chris Hansen's picture
Practical kung fu?

Hello everyone,

First post here. I've become a fan of Iain's work and I love what he's doing with karate. Since my experience has been with impractical karate, it's actually kind of a breath of fresh air and has made me look at it in a new way. 

Is there anyone doing a similar thing with kung fu? I'm currently studying choi li fut and would love to learn more about the practical application of it and how to train it to develop real skills. The kung fu I've seen has been lacking in that respect but I think it has a lot of potential. I think Iain's material can give a lot of ideas and inspiration but I would love to find some material specific to kung fu.

Thanks.

css1971
css1971's picture

Not looking at kung-fu on it's own but I was using it as research for sequences which were common to those in karate. There basically are, and it makes sense given the suggested history of kata/forms, so I don't see why the methods that Iain promotes shouldn't work for kung-fu forms as well.

This sequence from 1:15 - 3:15 for example matches the manji-uke section in passai/bassai.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21vZz4beFv8&t=1m15s

Chris Hansen
Chris Hansen's picture

That's kind of what I was thinking too. Studying Iain's material might help me understand the kung fu better. I think some of the training methods might be especially useful.

I'm fascinated by instructions for how kata should be interpreted and what the context is given its unique history. I haven't seen anything like that regarding kung fu forms so I'm not sure how much of it would apply.

I'm also trying to understand the relation between the formal exercises ("classical presentation" is a term I've heard) and the actual usage of it. Outside of formalized demos, the usage seems to look quite different from what's practiced.

esparsons
esparsons's picture

I'm sure there are plenty of others, but you might want to checkout Wim Demeere (http://www.wimsblog.com/). He practices traditional Chinese martial arts and is very practical-minded.

Eric

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

esparsons wrote:
I'm sure there are plenty of others, but you might want to checkout Wim Demeere (http://www.wimsblog.com/). He practices traditional Chinese martial arts and is very practical-minded.

I highly recommend Wim! Great guy who really knows his stuff.

Chris Hansen
Chris Hansen's picture

Thanks for the link, it looks pretty good. I wasn't aware of him.

Chris Hansen
Chris Hansen's picture

This guy, Pavel Macek, seems to be doing some good stuff too. I thought I'd post the link for those who might be interested.

http://practicalhungkyun.com/

DaveB
DaveB's picture

As I understand things, you really shouldn't have this problem with kungfu and if you do I would seriously consider finding a different school.

Karate practitioners have had to rediscover practical aapplication because of unique historical factors. Specifically the cultural shifts in Japan and Okinawa that caused this aspect of karate to be omitted and a sanitised version to be popularised are responsible for our woes in this area.

Chinese arts generally don't have this issue. Recently I've heard some make a similar argument about the efficacy of kungfu in the ring, but this was centred on a revisionist view of combat in general. (The old traditional arts don't work chestnut).

This is not to say that Iain's training methods and drills (and even kata analysis concepts) can't be helpful, they can, but your teacher or at least your teachers teacher should have all the answers you need with regards to the meaning and purpose of your forms. You may need to go elsewhere to ground yourself in the core skills of combat that underpin the use of techniques in fighting, but all traditional schools are at risk of being lacking in that area due to the amount of theory and myth that comes with the art. Often we forget to learn to fight as well as "do karate"(present company excepted).

Where Iain's work sshould help is once you have your application techniques and combative strategies as handed down in Choy Li Fut, they will help you in finding ways to drill the applications and transition from static drills to live fighting. 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

DaveB wrote:
As I understand things, you really shouldn't have this problem with kungfu and if you do I would seriously consider finding a different school.

Karate practitioners have had to rediscover practical application because of unique historical factors. Specifically the cultural shifts in Japan and Okinawa that caused this aspect of karate to be omitted and a sanitised version to be popularised are responsible for our woes in this area.

Chinese arts generally don't have this issue.

I think that’s generalisation that may not hold up. Chinese systems have also had similar historical factors and it is common place to find Chinese forms taught with little or no thought given to what the original intent may have been. There are also plenty of historical and contemporary expressions of this concern. For example:

“Individual training [forms] is prevailed in those institutions but the applied aspect of techniques learnt is ignored …Striving for nice-looking movements without practical use and absence of fighting spirit are at the bottom of it. In this way we shall lose little by little all the heritage of our ancestors who brilliantly used all methods and techniques in combat.” - Instructor’s Manual for Police Academy of Zhejiang Province by Liu Jin Sheng, 1936

Pavel Macek (mentioned in post above) makes the following comparisons on his webpage. The similarity between the “status quo” of Chinese systems and karate is there to be seen:

Status Quo: Oriental gymnastics, practice for show and effect, “movie” gungfu

Practical Hung Kyun Concept: Practical use – reality based self-defence, strength and conditioning, personal development

Status Quo: Practicing sparring sets “for show”

Practical Hung Kyun Concept: Application drills, sparring drills, self-defence scenarios, full-contact fighting

Status Quo: Reactive self-defense (“when your opponent attacks like this, then…”) based on non-realistic attacks (the proverbial straight punch with the second fist by the hip)

Practical Hung Kyun Concept: Proactive, aggressive approach to “self-defense”, practicing self-defence in situational drills based on realistic scenarios

Status Quo: Learning dozens of sets and hundreds of techniques

Practical Hung Kyun Concept: Emphasis on mastering the fundamental principles and drills (single drills, drills using various equipment, application drills, sparring and free fighting drills).

And so on: http://practicalhungkyun.com/practical-hung-kyun/mission-statement/

All of the above applies to both mainstream karate and mainstream kungfu.

This shift away from combative skills to aesthetics, health, sport, etc is by no means something unique to karate. A similar state exists within Chinese systems. Sure, there are plenty that do teach practical application (just as there are plenty of karate dojo that do), but they are far from being the majority.

A look at Wushu tournaments shows the same kind of choreographed flamboyance we see in team kata events (see videos below). Most Taichi practitioners have no idea of the martial application of the forms they practise … some are even unaware the forms have a martial application. You can also see many of the same issues karate has even when applications are taught i.e. formal attacks from huge distances, remaining static after a single attack, the lack of live training, etc.

I’d therefore not say, “You really shouldn't have this problem with kungfu and if you do I would seriously consider finding a different school.” Instead I would say, “You may well also have this problem with kungfu, and if you do I would find a different school.”

Just as with karate, there are lots of teachers of Chinese systems who teach very effective material (Wim Demeere being a gent I’ve personally met and been very impressed with), but it would be inaccurate to say they are the majority. I also feel it is inaccurate to say that Chinese systems, in a general scene, also don’t have the same issues that karate has.

There are parallel historical issues and much in common (good and bad) in how those systems are approached today.

All the best,

Iain

PS This is not realistic, but as “martial acrobatics” it is very impressive! Watch the slow motion at the end to see how close the spear gets. Important to remember that this is something the performers are doing WITH each other. Whereas true Chinese arts would be trained to done TO an enemy. Just the same as with karate. See the team “bunkai” demo below to see “WITH bunkai” as opposed to “TO bunkai”.

 

Wallace Smedley
Wallace Smedley's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

I’d therefore not say, “You really shouldn't have this problem with kungfu and if you do I would seriously consider finding a different school.” Instead I would say, “You may well also have this problem with kungfu, and if you do I would find a different school.”

Just as with karate, there are lots of teachers of Chinese systems who teach very effective material (Wim Demeere being a gent I’ve personally met and been very impressed with), but it would be inaccurate to say they are the majority. I also feel it is inaccurate to say that Chinese systems, in a general scene, also don’t have the same issues that karate has.

I have to agree with this. The problems are just a prevalent in kung fu as anywhere else.There is a LOT of impractical/misunderstood/poorly understood/misrepresented stuff in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. There are those doing hard work to get practical application out to the public and help the TCMA to become better understood, but there is a long road ahead. 

esparsons
esparsons's picture

DaveB wrote:

As I understand things, you really shouldn't have this problem with kungfu and if you do I would seriously consider finding a different school.

Karate practitioners have had to rediscover practical aapplication because of unique historical factors. Specifically the cultural shifts in Japan and Okinawa that caused this aspect of karate to be omitted and a sanitised version to be popularised are responsible for our woes in this area.

Chinese arts generally don't have this issue.

From my understanding, during the Cultural Revolution in China traditional Chinese martial arts (TCMA) were essentially banned with practitioners forced to flee, go into hiding, or stop practicing to avoid execution or other severe punishment. To quote everyone's favorite online encyclopedia:

"The PRC promoted the committee-regulated sport of Wushu as a replacement for independent schools of martial arts. This new competition sport was disassociated from what was seen as the potentially subversive self-defense aspects and family lineages of Chinese martial arts.[3]

In 1958, the government established the All-China Wushu Association as an umbrella organization to regulate martial arts training. The Chinese State Commission for Physical Culture and Sports took the lead in creating standardized forms for most of the major arts. During this period, a national Wushu system that included standard forms, teaching curriculum, and instructor grading was established. Wushu was introduced at both the high school and university level."

Hence, the sanitation of the martial arts may have actually been even stronger in China than in Okinawa/Japan, given that there was an official, state-sanctioned attempt to eradicate the traditional/self defense aspects of the art completely. As a result of the impacts of the Cultural Revolution, I have heard that the best places to truly learn TCMA are from the Chinese diaspora who fled during this time to places like Taiwan, Vietnam, the Phillipines, the US, etc.

Eric

Ian H
Ian H's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
PS This is not realistic, but as “martial acrobatics” it is very impressive! Watch the slow motion at the end to see how close the spear gets. Important to remember that this is something the performers are doing WITH each other. Whereas true Chinese arts would be trained to done TO an enemy. 

I had seen this video a while ago, and was suitably impressed by the athleticism and skill required of both women in bringing that routine to fruition.  When I watched it again today, that again was my first reaction, followed quickly by "that looks really dangerous if you do it wrong." 

Maybe this is just saying the same thing a different way, but ...

... I'd like to do something that looks really dangerous if I "do it right".  (As is often noted, we always train things "wrong" to preserve the health of our training partners, but ... but ... that's the difference, isn't it?  What we do, hopefully, is dangerous IF we do it "right" rather than if we do it "wrong".)

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

And the winner of Iain’s quote of the day goes to …

Ian H wrote:
but ... that's the difference, isn't it?  What we do, hopefully, is dangerous IF we do it "right" rather than if we do it "wrong".

Genius!

All the best,

Iain

Kevin73
Kevin73's picture

Here is a blog post that Wim Demeere wrote in response to this thread.  Very interested read.

http://www.wimsblog.com/2015/05/the-effectiveness-of-traditional-chinese...

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Follow the link below for a great article from Wim Demeere which was inspired by this thread!

The effectiveness of traditional Chinese martial arts

http://www.wimsblog.com/2015/05/the-effectiveness-of-traditional-chinese-martial-arts/

A great read!

All the best,

Iain

PS Just noticed Kevin beat me to it! :-)

On his website, there was a discussion about teaching traditional Chinese martial arts (in particular forms) in a practical way. You can read up about it here. Iain said some kind words about me (thanks Iain!) so I decided to write this blog post and share some thoughts.

As always, this is nothing but my personal opinion. It isn’t gospel, so feel free to discard it.

As mentioned in the forum discussion, karate gets a lot of bad press for not being effective in a “real fight” and one of the commenters claimed that this isn’t a big issue in Chinese arts. I beg to differ. There is loads and loads of crap out there (there is a lot of good too, but I’m going to focus on the bad in this article.) …